Thursday, August 17, 2006

The Concept of Irony

So the Chinese press is shaking with vitriol about Koizumi’s visit to Yasukuni.

The China-Japan relationship is one particularly fascinating part of life here. It shows, in many ways, how unwilling – or unable – to think millions of people are in this society. For they misunderstand the past, present and the likely future. And they are blind to the crashing irony and hypocrisy which riddles their belief.

I should perhaps begin by saying that Japan’s conduct in the war was a crime against humanity of the gravest degree, lest this blog be overwhelmed by young hotheads who, at the hint of a supposed conciliatory gesture to Japan, will begin to froth at their anonymous mouths. The horrors they committed at Nanjing were overwhelmingly evil, and the bone pits on display at the Nanjing Massacre Museum are a sight I will not forget.

But here’s how the Japan argument plays out with the average, say, Tongji student, who (being at that university) is generally a bright person.

Me: “It was 60 years ago. Why are you still angry?
Student: “They have not apologized for the war.
Me: “They have. Numerous times, for example Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama in 1995, or PM Ryutaro Hashimoto in 1997, or Junichiro Koizumi in 2005.”
Student: “Oh… are you sure? I never heard that. Well.. anyway… they do not teach the truth in their history books.”
Me: “The history book to which you agree is indeed offensive.” (Smile of righteous victory begins to play across student’s face; student’s shoulders begin to tense back in patriotic fervor)
Me: “But it is taught in less than one percent of schools.”
Student: “Oh… are you sure? I never heard that.
Me: “I am. Let me ask you a question. Do you think educators or the government should choose the syllabus in your university?
Student: “Educators. The government does not know what it best, and I wish at my university the teachers could decide what to teach.”
Me: “Well, in Japan, educators decide what to teach, not the government. The content of the books is not a direct government choice. ”
Student: : “Oh… are you sure? I never heard that.”
Me: “When that book was published, there were large demonstrations against it. 30,000 people marched in the streets to protest it.”
Student: “Oh… are you sure? I never heard that.”
Me: “What do you think would happen if people tried a public demonstration like that here?
Student giggles.
Me: “Did you know the PRC signed a joint communiqué in 1972 waiving all war reparations, and in 1978 signed a treat of peace and friendship with Japan?
Student: “Oh… are you sure? I never heard that.”
Me: “Did you know that when the war ended Japan left about US$100 billion of assets in China, which it agreed to leave as reparation?
Student: : “Oh… are you sure? I never heard that.”
Me: “Did you know Japan is China’s number one aid donor?
Student: : “Oh… are you sure? I never heard that.”

And so on.

It’s a curious double world, China, where it is fine to hate Japan, de rigueur to puff up with nationalist arrogance and demand ‘Japan face up to history,’ while at the same time wallowing in the grossest ignorance of China’s own recent history. The truth of the matter is that the CPC in general and Mao Zedong in particular have killed far more Chinese people, have hurt China far more profoundly than ever the Japanese did. But that is a truth too far for China, and here people are more comfortable with their simple world view, China good, Japan bad, with their simple surety that Japan is, was and always shall be evil, with their shallow-minded reliance on mathematical tricks to prove this contention – such as, for example, their oft-repeated claim that the Japanese killed 300,000 in the Nanjing Massacre, a figure which a cooler-headed look at history suggests is simply not true.


And it really is an alarming thing to hear students talk about Japan. The anger that comes into their voice, the real passion and hatred… I can understand their grandparents’ anger, for that anger comes from direct experience. But for them, who have never been hurt by Japan, it is astonishing, shocking in its brutal, visceral and unthinking conviction. I have met students in class who have actually wept when talking about Japan. It is absurd; how can they hold such hatred to something that never affected them?

It seems to me China is in love with its suffering; its people clutch the Nanjing massacre and all that to their hearts, they dance and romance their pain. It defines them; it is them. And, mired in their unthinking ignorance, what they do not see is that in so hating Japan they are learning precisely the lessons that the Japanese of that earlier generation learned – the absolute contempt for another race that allows such atrocities to be committed.

And the irony of it, the irony! So on the front page of yesterday’s China Daily there’s a photo of Japanese people, in Japan, protesting about Koizumi’s visit to the shrine. Japanese people protest, and the government will at least listen. Chinese people protest, and what happens? The government sends in the fucking tanks. People here are too busy hating Japan to see that it is the freedoms Japanese people have that they should be clamoring for instead.

But of course this is precisely why the CPC encourages hatred of Japan. In doing so, it can take the minds of the people off internal problems and focus them on external ones. The way that the CPC uses the appalling cruelty of wartime Japan to bolster its grip on power shows the most breathtakingly arrogant cynicism, the most profound contempt for the suffering of the Chinese people of the time. But most people here are blind to this. Nor, having the haziest understanding of democracy, do they see that Koizumi has to go to the shrine to show he is not being bossed around by other Asian nations. Not that that means Japan is militaristic – indeed, in the year that I worked there I found the people to be remarkably peaceful, though at that time I did not specifically look into their feelings about China.

And textbooks, let’s talk about teaching truth in schools, shall we? The Cultural Revolution, for example, that decade long period of lunacy in which thug scumbag Mao said, “Destroy the old and the new will take care of itself,” a period in which tens of thousands were murdered. In Chinese school textbooks (and I have checked) it gets two paragraphs, and, in the teacher’s guide, the instructions say “The teacher need not linger on this topic.” These same textbooks lie that the Great Famine was a natural disaster, and that Mao was ‘70% right 30% wrong,’ that the CPC did fighting against the Japanese in the war (whereas in fact the Guomindang did all the fighting after the CPC refused to join their ‘United Front’ against Japan).

And irony upon irony… In the features section of yesterday’s Shanghai Daily there’s a piece about “My grandfather Mao Zedong” in which his granddaughter has the gall, the absurdity to claim:-

“He was a son, husband and father firstly, a statesman secondly.”

There is nothing about this statement that is true.

Mao let both his father and mother die alone, though he had the chance to be with both as they died. He regularly abandoned wives and children, and for his whole life his sole center of concern was himself. And this woman, this granddaughter, even admits she never met Mao (who clearly did not give a fuck about her) yet has the unparalleled gall to claim he was a family man!

Or let’s talk about how Mao ran the Jiangxi Red Army base between 1931 and 1935. During his rule, the population dropped by 20%. Seven hundred thousand people died from non-natural causes. Half of these deaths were from people executed as ‘class enemies’ or from slave labor. In the case of the ‘class enemies’ Mao and his cronies thought up tortures every bit as brutal as the Japanese. For example, a wire would be run through the penis and the ear, and then plucked like a violin-string by the torturer; or a red-hot gun-barrel would be inserted in the anus.

And are people here clamoring for this truth to be faced up to? Or do they rather put Mao on the banknotes, his portrait in Tiananmen Square, his murderer’s face on a million busts and million statues? One of the greatest murderers of the 20th century but he’s a hero here.

Now the lies told in China do not make the lies told in Japan any less serious. They are no excuse not to be critical of Japan. But aside from a few wishy-washy generalities such as the bogus percentage above, local people (save for a tiny minority who see that to know their history is the true way to love their country), mostly live in total ignorance of the last half century’s terrors. Yes, some anger at Japan is justified, but nothing like the passionate hatred that soaks this society. And what is worse? To be hurt by an enemy (as in the case of Japan and China) or be hurt by a friend (as in the case of the CPC wallowing in the blood of its own people). attacking

That’s all in the past” students will tell me, and so it is. “We know all this” they will say (only they do not; they but know it in the most general, vague terms) “But what is the point of talking about it?” Why, then, are Japan’s atrocities not in the past? Ah, the double standards of this society.

I am a man who knows something about double standards. So back to that next time.


121 comments:

Loki on the run said...

Well done Bertrand.

I guess I can't object if you pork a few more.

Jay said...

I have been following your blog vicariously, and while I do think you sometimes slink over the line into sleaze, your transparency somewhat balances that out (whether or not this is tactical or sincere is debatable.)

However, this post deliciously summarized so much without a hint of self-serving whining. Bravo. Although, perhaps this bit: "I have met students in class who have actually wept when talking about Japan. It is absurd; how can they hold such hatred to something that never affected them?" detracts from your otherwise impervious argument. I think you could very well imagine where the reasonable case may arise. Also, the tone conveys a hint of disgust, intended or not.

Sophiemeng said...

Indeed this anti-japanese fever is a rather dangerous sorte of nationalisme, but your political theories aside, your descriptions of your love life in China Shanghai rather scares me.
You offered a panorama of the most modern chinese city which is hallucinant.
It's the society who's superficiel, yes maybe but it is exactly those young people who are going to rule my country in about twenty years or so, let's say. And sure confidence and knowing how to outstanding oneself are all qualities, yet in this point of view i cannot but wait to see China, in 20 years, becoming the world's biggest manufacturing-company of snobbery.
This is a nice blog, with point of views sometimes tranchant.But keep looking for more aspects.

siyan said...

I think it's very good that Chinabounder writes about how he uses the Shanghai girls in this blog. This blog is very realistic, and it will let other Chinese girls who read this to realize that not all white men in Shanghai are baimawangzi (a prince on a white horse)

cathy said...

Me: “Did you know that when the war ended Japan left about US$100 billion of assets in China, which it agreed to leave as reparation?”
_____________________

what assets?can you give more detais?the assets they left actually are not their's,it's just robbed from China.

Anonymous said...

If there were anybody who look at history through rose tinted lenses its you, Shanghai Casanova.

Yes, the Chinese people were led to believe in one side of the story which is provocative, unhealty and overly nationalistic but you took the bright side of whatever coming out of the Right wing Government government's mouth and glosses over the contradictory ones.

Yes, the Japanese government apologises and regrets the war, then deny the mass sexual slavery and human experimentation which on a per human scale out 'horrified' the genocide of the Jews.

The Japanese Government regretted the war then the Prime Minister visited the Shrine on SURRENDER DAY, of all days. Did you mention that? Of cos not.

Because of this, victims are not allowed to claim compensation from Japanese courts. Yes the PRC signed something saying that claims for compensation will be waved, etc etc, because of that many victims continue to live in shame and injustice. Screw the PRC and Japanese governments for overlooking such claims, though in different time period.

The Japanese Government left assets, railways, buildings to China, and how much did the victims get? almost Zilch.

And here you are yabbling about chess movements of the higher powers and overlooking the plights of the victims, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Those 'history books' which are taught in 1 percent of school is actually claims that Dokdo (and many other islands) belongs to Japan. Most textbook treats the Japanese War in a less than savage light. Surely you have heard of cases of teachers being suspended because they said the war is something to be ashamed of and then got suspendended by the school boards.

Yes the Japanese are the number one aid leaders in China and rest of Asia, yes its totally true, however, most of those are in terms of soft loans and not direct aid. (e.g money which must be returned), however Japanese private investments are unquestionably high and we have a lot to thank them about.

And about the Nanjing Massacre. So a lesser figure than 300,000 proves that a massacre did not take place?

Maybe if 200,000 were killed in cold blood, then too bad for them, its war after all. No big deals, people die in war. Just like those people who are unfortunately to be caught in the firestorms of Dresden. It is not a massacre... right?

" I can understand their grandparents’ anger...who have actually wept when talking about Japan . It is absurd; how can they hold such hatred to something that never affected them?"

Its Part of their HISTORY. HISTORY is very important to a national identity. And for your information, Chinese do not throw aside their parents and grandparents during old age. Respect and taking care of them and supporting them is part of the racial psyche.

Chinese do not hate the Japanese, get that straight, just because of a few government organized zealots, an occasional burning ultra nationalist or a finger chopping lunatic, you think the CHINESE HATE JAPANESE.

Chinese are not as stupid and ignorant as you think. Maybe they are fed crap by the newspapers and government, but given a rational discussion (one which you clearly did not give), a more balanced viewpoint often emerges.

I have many friends from China who is aware of what happened, like Japanese culture, comics, cartoons, technology etc.

And regarding Mao, he is evil, a manipulator and caused untold sufferings among his own people. Its a 100 percent fact.

In China, its amazing, how his crimes and genocidal deeds can be hidden from the public and cunningly dissembled in a nice manner.

They Chinese people are misinformed, its not the case of the pot calling the kettle black.

The Chinese Government is a real Son of a Bitch. I have met many overseas Chinese who understood what went on and are usually not afraid to voice their opinions.

Yes, Mao is a bastard who deserves to be sent to the bottom of hell to be roasted by Satan along with Tojo, Stalin, Hitler and the likes.

In short, in your determination to provide an argument, you forgot about the real victims of the war, those who suffered and perished and saw their claims for compensations and recognition twarted at every turn.

Anonymous said...

"I am a man who knows something about double standards."

Of cos...it takes a butterfly fluttering from one student to another to know the lies and bully tactics of politicians.

Anonymous said...

If a wolf wants to eat a sheep, it can always find an excuse. So can chinabounder.

Loki on the run said...

Ahhh, Anon, you say:


If a wolf wants to eat a sheep, it can always find an excuse. So can chinabounder.


Can't you find a better analogy?

Wolves are carnivores, so they exist to kill in order to live.

OTOH, Chinabounder is a sexual predator, so he exists to ... oh shit.

In any case, there is no justification needed in their tiny minds ...

Loki on the run said...

Anon spews forth much rhetoric, including:


In short, in your determination to provide an argument, you forgot about the real victims of the war, those who suffered and perished and saw their claims for compensations and recognition twarted at every turn.


So, if they perished how can they see their claims for compensation and recognition thwarted at every turn?

Many more people in history than those who died during the Japanese invasion of China have seen their claims for compensation and recognition thwarted.

Just consider, as Chinabounder pointed out, all the Chinese that Mao killed. Or, the Cambodians who were killed however much smaller their numbers were. Or, all the people in the former Soviet Union, or all the people who died in the Americas as a result of the unintended introduction of diseases that native Americans were not imune to. Or all those people in the world who have died from the effects of alcohol because they did not have the ability to metabilize it like Caucasians do.

Frankly, I can't see why the people you refer to deserve any special recognition or claims to our sympathy.


I weep for you the Walrus said, I deeply sympathize,

With sobs and tears he sorted out those of the largest size

ChinaBounder said...

Anonymous said If there were anybody who look at history through rose tinted lenses its you, Shanghai Casanova.Yes, the Chinese people were led to believe in one side of the story which is provocative, unhealty and overly nationalistic but you took the bright side of whatever coming out of the Right wing Government government's mouth and glosses over the contradictory ones.


There is a certain amount of sense among your tirade. But still you fall into the classic, and mistaken, assumptions that mark most of the dialog on this topic.

I made it perfectly clear that I disagreed with Koizumi visiting the shrine. And of course I was well aware he made the trip on a particularly sensitive day. I also pointed out that his trip was, in some ways, a political necessity.

Chinese people get terribly offended when Bush offers an opinion about Taiwan. They would be furious if their government listened to the White House. In the same way, Koizumi cannot be seen to be listening to the strictures of a foreign power.

Yes the PRC signed something saying that claims for compensation will be waved, etc etc, because of that many victims continue to live in shame and injustice. Screw the PRC and Japanese governments

This was my point. The PRC has its own share of culpability in this affair, but it keeps very quiet about that share.

claims that Dokdo (and many other islands) belongs to Japan.


And China claims the Spratleys as well as Diaoyutai with equal belligerent surety. Did you know that China’s territorial claims extend a thousand kilometers from the mainland? The point here is that all the countries contesting these islands have more or less valid claims – none of which were of any importance until the various players realized their might be oil underneath. All this posturing about ‘historical rights’ is a cover for a greedy scramble for oil.


And about the Nanjing Massacre. So a lesser figure than 300,000 proves that a massacre did not take place?Maybe if 200,000 were killed in cold blood, then too bad for them, its war after all.


That is not the point. You are either obtuse or willfully misunderstand me. In your haste to reply to what you would like me to have said, you ignore what I did in fact say.

The point is that if China uses a false figure then it gives the right wing in Japan the opportunity to say, “China is wrong about the figure, therefore the massacre never happened at all.” China has a duty to be accurate about the truth both as a matter of respect to those who died and as a bulwark against revisionism. Instead, it uses this terrible incident for propaganda. Thus both sides profane the memory of the dead.

If you visit the Nanjing Massacre Memorial, in all its Disneyesque tackiness, you will see that, at the end, near the exit, after all the horrors and the numerous repetitions of the figure of 300,000, there is a cabinet of English language documents.

These are from the tribunal that took place after Japan’s surrender. These documents state that `between 28,000 and 30,000 people were killed in the city or just outside its walls.’ That is, 28 to 30 thousand. I have not missed out a zero, nor did I misread the documents. You can, if you wish, go to check this yourself.

But as you say, the real victims of the war are forgotten by both governments.


Just like those people who are unfortunately to be caught in the firestorms of Dresden. It is not a massacre... right

The bombing of Dresden was a crime against humanity. I condemn it without reserve. Once again you seem to have understood rather little of my angle on this question.


Its Part of their HISTORY. HISTORY is very important to a national identity.

Then it is a shame that they do not know their history better.

And for your information, Chinese do not throw aside their parents and grandparents during old age. Respect and taking care of them and supporting them is part of the racial psyche.

That has nothing to do with the argument. Like your opening line, it suggests you wish to make a personal attack rather than deal with the issue at hand. You are trying to deflect my argument by saying ‘Well people in the UK are rotten, they don’t care for the elderly.’

And in any case you are wrong. You are merely repeating another platitude, one that I have heard expressed on numerous occasions.

In the big cities between 40% (Shanghai, Beijing) and 60% (Tianjin) of elderly people live alone. They report being lonely and say their children seldom visit them.

One of the reasons Chinese society does not put its elderly into old people’s homes is that they do not exist. For example, China began construction on its first residential community specially designed for the elderly in April this year, in Shanghai’s Nanhui District.

Additionally, elderly people face great loneliness when widowed because this ‘respectful’ society you speak of frowns on remarriage. 50% of widowed seniors say they cannot remarry due to this tradition, and a further 33% say they cannot remarry since their children would not permit it.

And tell me how is it I see numerous old people begging in public? How is it frequently old people standing on the tube and younger people sitting?

Chinese do not hate the Japanese, get that straight

I disagree. I have talked to several thousand young people. Their feeling towards Japan ranges from dislike to strong hatred.

just because of a few government organized zealots

A few? With hundreds of thousands marching in China’s cities last year? Come, come.

Chinese are not as stupid and ignorant as you think.

As is very clear, you misunderstand what I think. I do feel many Chinese people are ignorant, but this is due to the lamentable education the government mandates. It is no more their fault that it is the `fault’ of young Japanese people who do not know about their country’s wartime behavior.

I have never said ‘Chinese people are stupid.’

And regarding Mao, he is evil, a manipulator and caused untold sufferings among his own people. Its a 100 percent fact. In China, its amazing, how his crimes and genocidal deeds can be hidden from the public and cunningly dissembled in a nice manner.

So we agree, don’t we?

They Chinese people are misinformed, its not the case of the pot calling the kettle black.The Chinese Government is a real Son of a Bitch.


So we agree, don’t we?

In short, in your determination to provide an argument, you forgot about the real victims of the war, those who suffered and perished and saw their claims for compensations and recognition twarted at every turn. –

Once more you fail to understand what I said.

I am aghast at the ignorance of history precisely because of the contempt it shows for the suffering of the people. If you read what I said more carefully, you will see that I spoke of the CPC’s `most profound contempt for the suffering of the Chinese people of the time.’

My point is almost entirely the same as yours. I find the veneration of Mao disgusting precisely because is offers the vilest contempt for the millions he drove to death, torture and misery.

ChinaBounder said...

Anonymous said…...it takes a butterfly fluttering from one student to another to know the lies and bully tactics of politicians.

That was precisely my point. Clearly you are a more attentive reader than the person above.

Anonymous said...

Erm Chinabouder,

The two people above were one and the same. me.

I was not trying to defend the people or Government of Japan or to criticize them.

The point I was trying to made is that your bloody post is an exercise in one sidedness. The fact was you point out the marvellous things the Japanese Government did and the evil things the government did without establishing a clear and balanced viewpoint.

For instance you did not point out that Koizumi chose a stupid date to visit the shine the date in which would most inflammed tension, or that Japan did not apologize for the mass sexual slavery of Asian women.

In short the post is misleading. I have to wait till your comments before actually finding some grains of counterbalances to your argument. I could have mistaken it for ultra right wing Japanese.

Lets assume that everything you say to the student is accurate word to word. You painted a one sided picture of the whole China (and Korea)-Japan issue without offering a balanced explaination. The feeling one get is the Japanese Government has everything to lose and it was being bullied to a corner.

Clearly you read quite a bit of stuff on history, because of that your one sided picture of the whole situation is even more disgusting than a mere ignorant Chinese or Japanese youth.

Anonymous said...

awesome! i'm moving to shanghai in a few weeks. reading your stories has really helped me relax and put some of the cultural issues i'll face into perspective. keep up the good work!

Anonymous said...

Plus, your disfigurement (literally) of the figure of the Nanjing dead was shameful.

"These are from the tribunal that took place after Japan’s surrender. These documents state that `between 28,000 and 30,000 people were killed in the city or just outside its walls.’ That is, 28 to 30 thousand. I have not missed out a zero, nor did I misread the documents. You can, if you wish, go to check this yourself."

I rechecked it for myself. I know Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source of information and I do not have a whole archive available to me.

Nonetheless

"The International Military Tribunal for the Far East estimated in two (seemingly conflicting) reports that "over 200,000" and "over 100,000" civilians and prisoners of war were murdered during the first six weeks of the occupation. That number was based on burial records submitted by charitable organizations—including the Red Swastika Society and the Chung Shan Tang (Tsung Shan Tong)—the research done by Smythe, and some estimates given by survivors."

No matter how you look at it 100,000 let alone 200,000 for the first SIX WEEK is a lot of difference from 30,000.

That these estimates are not exaggerated is borne out by the fact that burial societies and other organizations counted more than 155,000 bodies which they buried ... and that is for burial alone.

I did not explain where I got my 200,000. That is the average figure of all respectable publication taken from respected historians. Even most Japanese Historians did not state anything less than 100,000.

According to Japanese Lieutenant colonel Toshio Ohta's statement, between December 14 and December 18 the Japanese commanding headquarters of Nanjing Port disposed of 100,000 bodies while other troops disposed of 50,000.

For all the hot air given by the article you have just provided, it just merely state that 300,000 was too high. That's all, no where did it say 30,000 people died in all.

Mao supressed information regarding to the Nanjing Massacre after World War Two.

Pot calling the kettle black... that's the blogger for you

Anonymous said...

"awesome! i'm moving to shanghai in a few weeks. reading your stories has really helped me relax and put some of the cultural issues i'll face into perspective. keep up the good work!"

There you have it, China girls are ignorant and easy. You better get a very thick blackbook.

Loki on the run said...

Anon says some more stupid things:


For instance you did not point out that Koizumi chose a stupid date to visit the shine the date in which would most inflammed tension, or that Japan did not apologize for the mass sexual slavery of Asian women.


Hmmm, so the Japanese are not Asian?

Remind me, what would have happened to Japanese women when the Chinese (under the descendents of Temujin) tried to invade the Japanese islands?

And now that I have launched on that tangent, tend to forget that all actions have consequences. They tend to minimize the responsibility that their ancestors have for the situations we find ourselves in today.

Had the Chinese, as a people, not engaged in over a thousand years of dubious actions (letting the Mongols invade them, letting another group of Steppe peoples invade them, letting various emporers decide which external threats would be attended to and which ones would not be), I dare say that the rape of Nanking would not have happened because the Japanese would not have been able to invade.

History is complex and can be looked at from multiple different view points, and to claim that Chinabounder is wrong or evil because he does not look at it from your point of view is, quite simply, intellectually dishonest.

bmpc said...

This article, uh, is good.
It reminds me when I was in China, I hated Japan.I can understand why Chinese especially young guys hate Japan.
A child who grows up in China would go through these transformations:1. from elementary to high school,is a learning machine. Don't think, whatever the teacher tells you, just memorize it.
2.high school,began to wake up a little bit, because the economic teachings talk about the disadvantages of a monopoly(made me think of the CPC as a "monopoly"),the advantages of socialism politics(suspicious,doesn't make sense to me), but who cares? As long as I could go to college, I would memorize whatever the textbook said.
3.College life is ..nothing to say. Big party.
4.After college,I went into the society. Everything is upside down from the textbooks. Suspect--disbelief--wake up--dislike the lies,dislike the society--try to escape from it.
5.To me, I changed a lot after I came to the US. I heard the other side of the story. I was just a primary student again, read a lot, think a lot.

I don't hate Japan any more, I began to post articles on forums,trying to persuade young guys to be rational, to realize the anti-Japan feeling is a strategy that CPC uses to shift attention from domestic problems, boycotting Japanese products might be the strategy that some Chinese companies to sell their poor products. But the result is obvious, I was "dog blood splash my head(Chinese idiom, means fiece opposition)". Nobody would listen to me, and they are in a great passion of patriotism.

These university students mentioned in your article would change once they work a couple years, if they are smart enough and open-minded.

All these nationalism due to the CPC propoganda for political purposes. That's one of the the common characteritics of dictatorship. North Koreans hate the US,they dream everyday that American troops would invade their country, so Kim could be the protector of NK people. That's Kim's strategy to shift attention from the domestic horrible famine. Now NK thinks the famine is caused by the US and they strongly believe it.

A similar strategy is used in China. I truly believe the Chinese political structure would change along with the developing economy. Most people would wake up when their purse is heavier,they can travel to Europe, to the US, the outside world, they would wake up. Just wait and see.

Anonymous said...

Its me again, this will be my last post. Loki is a very silly boy and I shall ignore him.

bmpc made some good points about the nature of education in China.

So lets assume that the Chinese were brainwashed by the Government and all its evils. (which they are to a great extent)

People in South Korea being a free democratic nation and all should not be angry about the Japanese government actions right? Gosh, what are they doing protesting in great numbers outside the Japanese Emb?

doubal standard said...

" their oft-repeated claim that the Japanese killed 300,000 in the Nanjing Massacre, a figure which a cooler-headed look at history suggests is simply not true."


how do u know it is simply not true? why you only mention Nanjing Massacre? or just because u only know this massacre? let me tell you some massacres in relation to my grandmother who lived in a remote mountains in the second war, 40 people in that small village, only 4 survivals who are asked to bury corpus which including their families,see straight, it is merely a remote mountain village.
be careful of your words,they are lifes, not figures, plz stop insulting dead people by saying "a figure" if u are not beast. even if the number is not so accurate as u said, so what? what is real difference between killing 100000 and 300000 people? or u think killing 100000 is not enough to reveal Japan’s atrocities? or in ur eyes, they are just figure things? or killing your mother is less guilty than killing both your parents? never ever use figure to caculate lifes,or to judge crime, history is history, the only thing we know is that Massacre factually happened, some japanese never admit it,Enough~~that is why i never argue with japanese righty who said chinese make up Nanjing massacre, never agree with leftist who admit they kill 300000people in Nanjing. the most disgusting thing is some people try to use figure to deny massacre, to make a false countercharge--china make up the figure so china make up the history,so china is wicked, so they are forced to fight against china, and eventually they become a plaintiff, i hope u r not that kind of people. before u define Nanjing massacre, and doubt the population killed by japanese, plz read Joshua fogel and 沟口雄三(a japanese)'s book commenting on nanjing massacre. then you will know how prejudicial u are, why so many japanese prefer to focus on the number, what is exactly meaning of "political figure" and "emotional figure"~~~about apologize things, do u heard of "sincerity", the people you mentioned apologized on behalf of who,their goverment?their country?or just for politics,even just for formula? you should go to talk with japanese and German, to tell their real attitude diference to the second war .

"Did you know that when the war ended Japan left about US$100 billion of assets in China,
why the CPC encourages hatred of Japan. "

i kill your mother, then i loathly said "sorry", giving u 100billion, PLZ thank me!!! thanks for my benefaction, remember my bounty, publicize my kindness~~~~ i got to say u r so child who are trying to show off understaning by totally misunderstanding, who are claiming justice by totally bias.


"how can they hold such hatred to something that never affected them?"

you shoud go to ask new generation of judean why they still hate fascist, and wanna kill them all? every chinese have relative killed in the second war, or u think great-grand is not big deal? you said never affected them?? so why china is still a developing country??why so many people still suffer from hunger?? do u dare to say those are totally irrelative to the aggression of japan? by the way, go to drive japanese cars sold in china and sold in Europe, read some traffic accident news and vehicle safety reports from china and Europe , then u can see some funny phenomenon, and think about why. and think about what double standard really is.

"why the CPC encourages hatred of Japan.The way that the CPC uses the appalling cruelty of wartime Japan to bolster its grip on power shows the most breathtakingly arrogant cynicism."

i do tell u that most of anti-japanese behaviour are completely individual behaviour on their own initiative but not goverment guided. contrarily, goverment are always trying to overcome these conflicts in relation to japan. Forums are asked to screen some sensitive words such as"日本人""日货""FXXK 日本"."appalling cruelty of wartime" resource mostly come from internet and folklore, and never show up in any kinds of media except war movie. my real experience, several years ago, one japanese international student of Zhejiang university punched a chinese girl somehow, and insult her someway. this madded a lot of chinese students, they attempted to get together to beat this guy, but this trash run into his international students dormitory, when chinese students were trying to break into his dormitory, polices were coming dispeling students. finally, 5 thousand of students and nearly 1 thousand of cops confronted each other. the result was that trash went back japan safely.you can find this news from internet. goverment tend to be peaceful, so dont charge all responsibility to political aspect, this can only reveals ur narrow-minded,i admit that CPC is still developing and in some ways, are not so good. but why u always ignore bright side, things change, CPC are struggling on changing which every chinese can see it, maybe CPC have already existed for 85years, but actually its real revolution merely started from 20years ago, u cant require perfect performance in such short time. change needs time, at least, we can tell improvement.


"that the CPC did fighting against the Japanese in the war (whereas in fact the Guomindang did all the fighting after the CPC refused to join their ‘United Front’ against Japan.)"

china has a proverb: winer is king, loser is sin. in a war, neither justicial nor evil, winer means justice, if fascist won the second war, now we will say how evil Britain is. everyone knows , in fact,"Guomindang did all the fighting",but finally it failed in game. there is no moral in a battle, just like gamble, winer get money even if by cheating trick, no one is chaste, but the world do have rules.

"And are people here clamoring for this truth to be faced up to?
Or do they rather put Mao on the banknotes, his portrait in Tiananmen Square, his murderer’s face on a million busts and million statues? "

if you wanna know what people exactly consider about cultural revoluation and Mao in china, Try to study chinese, otherwise u could only be a sciolist. as once as u can read and type chinese, post some articles about cultural revoluatioan and mao on any forums, u will see the result, and u will see the truth.no one is blind no one is fool, but some ones are sapient, some ones are keeping quiet.

some countries claim free maket, but set up barriers for other countries, sometimes they just pretend better than us, dont they?no one is chaste

Anonymous said...

The Comfort Women and Nanking Issue.

Imagine how things will be like if after the Allied Forces left (West Germeny), the German Goverment declared that the slaughter of Jews did not take place on a systematic official basis and whatever killings which took place were the work of private individuals and commanders acting out of independence.

The Education Ministry approved textbooks saying that the German Expansion is just to liberate the Aryan people and they should have the old Prussian Empire back as well.

The Axis powers have laws against Holocaust Denial. (Just ask David Irving), while a sizable portion of Japanese Historians, Politicians said that WWII was just merely an incident, an evolution of history towards a greater good. etc.

Things can't move on, how can they?

You talk about double standards, there are double standards everywhere. This post included.

I really must sleep now.

The Last (I mean it) Anon letter

Anonymous said...

Axis powers should be corrected as 'Former Axis Powers'

Loki on the run said...

Oh, it's anon again, asking more stupid questions as if one single piece of information will make us all see things anon's way:


People in South Korea being a free democratic nation and all should not be angry about the Japanese government actions right? Gosh, what are they doing protesting in great numbers outside the Japanese Emb?


People who have not seen other cultures and other ways of life are often very narrow minded and ethnocentric.

That does not prove that their actions are correct or that your views are correct.

The world is a vastly more complex place than you claim it is, and Chinabounder's actions are a lot less evil than those of others in recent history. He also displays an understanding of the complexities of history than you do.

I greatly prefer his double standard to your hypocracy.

Anonymous said...

"he also displays an understanding of the complexities of history than you do."

Right, so lets deny the Nanjing Massacre ever happened and those comfort women are willing slaves.

Afterall, we have our master Historian on the tow.

Loki on the run said...

Anon spouts more crap:


Right, so lets deny the Nanjing Massacre ever happened and those comfort women are willing slaves.


Whoever said anything of that sort.

By using the Japanese as convenient scapegoats for the failings of generations of Chinese rulers (enabled by the failings of the Chinese people) we are simply allowing those things to happen again in the future.

I can well imagine some really smart native American dying of smallpox, watching his children and relatives also dying, and wondering why they didn't band together and develop technology that could counter external threats.

Let's hope that you never have to live through a Cultural Revolution because you were too busy being angry at the Japanese to take whatever steps were necessary to prevent it.

Anonymous said...

你又不是中国人,你怎么知道中日战争给中国人带来多大的伤害呢?这种民族矛盾那是时间的长久和几个道歉就能忘记的呢?而且如果这些道歉是真诚的,为什么小泉今年还继续参拜靖国神社?
你现在知道的也只不过你通过一些报纸或者一些身边的人告诉你的而已.你的认识还只是停留在你的表面上.所以等你打算做一个研究中日历史的人,你再来发表为什么中国人恨日本人让你无法理解的观点吧,另外,看来你的这个学生除了说,你确定吗?我从来没听过.就不会说其他的话了.我怎么觉的他是在敷衍你.如果有一个人是我的老师或者朋友的话,问我的问题很愚蠢又接连不段继续问的话,我基本上也会采取这样的方法.当然以你的思维你可能会说,既然你不想回答就别回答不就好.这里我要和你解释一下,我们中国人是尊师重教的,即使那个人在怎么讨厌,我们也会回答完毕他的问题.你可以理解为文化的差异吧.

另外.我对你的性生活不感兴趣,你和多少个女人发生关系,这些女人是那个国家的,这些都是你的爱好,你的权利.不过我在这里好意的提醒你一句.千万别纵欲过度了.我看过一部西方的电视,里面有一个人也和你一样沉迷于性生活当中,以致于他后来见到人就有性冲动(没看错,是人,不管男人女人只要能满足自己的欲望就行)
不过后来他参加了什么AA之类的.就是多少多少天不和人发生性关系.慢慢的恢复过来了.你应该还停留在初级阶段吧,只和女人发生关系.还没到见人就发生关系的地步.
最后,我打的是中文,你看的懂吗?别告诉我来了中国这么长时间,只学会了和上海女人性交.(是性交不是做爱,没说错吧,你们外国把这些词应该分的很开的吧)而不会中文哦.如果你不会,你就要快速的适宜这个环境啊,不能让环境适宜你.你看我们中国人对你多好,在自己的国家,还打英文迁就你.虽然他们的英文有的看起来很蹩脚,但起码他们也把这份心意给表达了.你应该很欣慰吧.

Loki on the run said...

Anon says:


你又不是中国人


So what. I am human! I also have children who are half Chinese and I have seen more than my fair share of misery and self-serving hypocracy to know what the cost is.

Anonymous said...

From Loki,

Anon spouts more crap:

Right, so lets deny the Nanjing Massacre ever happened and those comfort women are willing slaves.

Whoever said anything of that sort.

erm... Chinabounder?

From his blog
"such as, for example, their oft-repeated claim that the Japanese killed 300,000 in the Nanjing Massacre, a figure which a cooler-headed look at history suggests is SIMPLY not true."

Who says I am angry at the Japanese? Did I mention once that I hate the Japanese?

Anonymous said...

How dare you criticize Mao, red sun of my heart. He was a greater saint than Jesus or Mohammed, who expelled the evil evil Japanese devils (who killed more people than the Nazis), and got rid of the evil Kuomintang and made China a paradise on earth that people all over the world clamored to get into during his lifetime and even now. Meanwhile look at Taiwan after the Kuomintang got there. They killed everybody and now it's now the poorest country on earth.

Anonymous said...

Hey, Chinabounder!
Give me a break.

Are you talking about history and international relationship in East Asia? Come on, man.

Let's talk about sex and your relationship with chinese girls. will you?

You think who the hell you are?

JoeBu said...

I think I did it again
I made you believe we're more than just friends
Oh baby
It might seem like a crush
But it doesn't mean that I'm serious
'Cause to lose all my senses
That is just so typically me
Oh baby, baby
Oops!...I did it again

Loki on the run said...

Anon says:


Are you talking about history and international relationship in East Asia? Come on, man.

Let's talk about sex and your relationship with chinese girls. will you?


Well, for real men the two most interesting things to talk about are international relationships and pussy.

Anonymous said...

Loki on the run said...
"Well, for real men the two most interesting things to talk about are international relationships and pussy."

Yeah...I agree for REAL MEN...

However, do you think Chinabounder is a real man? (Fuck...Ask your baby about it)

ChinaOutBounder said...

"However, do you think Chinabounder is a real man? "

Any suggestion?

Who is Chinabounder

Anonymous said...

If you dare to post your pictures, am sure you will disappear in China very very soon !!........No wonder Mid East peopel hate your western..... you are a dog a bitch a ass ...fuck your mother and all western grils/womans.. fuck you off!

Anonymous said...

some thing you said is right.
in fact many student know real history about mao,but more student don,t know.everyone want to talk about this ,but cpc let we shut up!
kill is wrong in china as well as japan.

I hate MAO !I hate CPC!!!I hate killer in japan!

Anonymous said...

keep doing ur good job in fulfilling the carnal desire of some stupid chinese women, cuz u are so silly when talk about politics

ChinaBounder said...

Anonymous said…No matter how you look at it 100,000 let alone 200,000 for the first SIX WEEK is a lot of difference from 30,000.

Yes, agreed, and the figure I mentioned does seem anomalously low. I suspect the true number is, as you say, much higher. Nonetheless I saw those documents at first hand. Again, I am not at all trying to say ‘The Japanese of that time weren’t so bad.’ They committed the most appalling cruelties.

Mao, by the way, never once spoke of the Nanjing Massacre. He did not seem to care about it in the slightest. Indeed, he said he was grateful to Japan for invading China, "Otherwise we (the CPC) would still be in the mountains."

But I will add that the Japanese were not particularly unique in their behavior. Look at what was going on recently in Sierra Leone, for example, and the monstrous cruelties instigated by Foday Sankoh, or Charles Taylor, whose soldiers liked to pass the time by finding pregnant women, betting on the gender of her fetus – and cutting her open to see. Soldiers who also liked to force a child to kill its parents, then make the child cut open the dead parent's head, and eat the brains.

The wartime Japanese were guilty of the most serious crimes against humanity. But they are often viewed as uniquely evil, and China’s wartime suffering is often painted as uniquely bad. Neither of these are true. Man hands on misery to man.

double standard said...

Loki on the run ... "By using the Japanese as convenient scapegoats for the failings of generations of Chinese rulers."

r u confused? cultural revolution and aggression of japan are totally separate events~~~
Dont define any thing by using opinionated words, based on ur logic,could i say ur purpose is "By using the failings of generations of Chinese rulers as convenient scapegoats for the aggression of japan", couldn't i ?

acctually, U r narrow-minded and ethnocentric as well, using ur "double standard" to justify ur bias~~
just like what i said "you just pretend better than us"

Before u say "He also displays an understanding of the complexities of history",again, plz read Joshua Fogel and 沟口雄三(a japanese)'s books commenting on nanjing massacre. Be objective, calm down, u r not child any more.

at the same time, go to any bookshop, tell book seller that u wanna a book about cultural revolution wroten by modern chinese writer( Modern~!),finish reading(only cost u less than 30yuan), then come back telling me what u find. Again, Be objective, calm down, dont be simply affected by a sciolist, u r not child any more.

one question for Chinabounder, you emphasize oft "too passionate hatred ", so how about japanese right winger, do u know "支那", here is a picture which can explain to you.(http://blog.4city.com.cn/attachments/2006/07/07/2006707_c78fda247918e3923ba9abb06a6daeac.jpg) ? why you ignore their behavior? this is ur single standard?
u used one sentence to say"The history book to which you agree is indeed offensive.” then used 7 paragraphs to find excuses and exculpate for this textbook, finally transfered ur topic to chinese textbook, and started charging it, i have to say u r really good at making a false countercharge. who is hypocrisy??who is double standard?

ChinaBounder said...

doubal standard said... … how do u know it is simply not true?

If you read other articles by the journalist who wrote the report I referred to, John Gittings, you will see that he is an extremely judicious and impartial source.

u think killing 100000 is not enough to reveal Japan’s atrocities?

I made it explicitly clear I do not think this.

let me tell you some massacres in relation to my grandmother who lived in a remote mountains in the second war, 40 people in that small village, only 4 survivals who are asked to bury corpus which including their families,

Let me tell you some massacres in relation to the deeds of the CPC. These are the words of a leader of a CPC rebel base on the Hunan-Hubei border.

“In one purge alone, 10,000 people were killed (by the CPC). Now (in 1961, when he said this) there are only a few women comrades left alive, and this is because the men were killed first.. and then the enemy (the KMT) came before the women could be killed. Even today in the area they dig bones from one big pit after another.”

Also, speaking of this event, another witness said, “Many had been put in big cloth bags and thrown into Lake Hong with stones tied to them. Fishermen did not dare go fishing on the lake because so many corpses came up, and the color of the lake changed.”

to make a false countercharge--china make up the figure so china make up the history,so china is wicked, so they are forced to fight against china, and eventually they become a plaintiff, i hope u r not that kind of people.

I made it explicitly clear in my original post that the very reason China had to be accurate was to stop such revisionism. You should read what I say before you reply.

i kill your mother, then i loathly said "sorry", giving u 100billion, PLZ thank me!!!.

That was not my argument.

The 100 billion sum comes from all the equipment the Japanese left behind. Yes, it could be argued (as someone has) that this was in any case ‘stolen’ from China, though that is a simplification. Japan had long been industrially active in China, along with the other invading western powers, meaning that the economy was self-generating. Of course that does not make it in any way right, but the picture is not quite as simple as ‘The Japanese only left behind the stuff they had looted from the people.’ In any case, the Japanese did not want to launch full-scale war against China. They had too much to lose by doing that. Have you ever wondered why the war began in Shanghai, when the bulk of the Japanese activity was in the north? The reason the war began was not because the Japanese wanted it, but because Stalin engineered it via the CPC and a spy in the KMT called Zhang Zhizhong.

you shoud go to ask new generation of judean why they still hate fascist, and wanna kill them all?


Think before you write. You are conflating two different things here. Anger at people who have a corrupt agenda, like anti-Semites, is justified. Witness, for example, the furor over Mel Gibson’s remarks. But anger at people who are merely the descendants of anti-Semites, while not being anti-Semitic themselves, is absurd. Thus it is acceptable to be angry at neo-Nazis, but not at all Germans. But rather than being angry at the Japanese government’s unwillingness to face history, or at the activities of the relatively small number of far-right revisionists, too many young Chinese people have a general anger towards all Japanese people.


my real experience, several years ago, one japanese international student of Zhejiang university punched a chinese girl somehow, and insult her someway. this madded a lot of chinese students, they attempted to get together to beat this guy, but this trash run into his international students dormitory


It doesn’t surprise me. If a Chinese student hit a Chinese girl I doubt there would be anything like the same reaction. Certainly on campus I have seen guys slap girls (only a few times, though) and I have been the only one to intervene.

Indeed, it is precisely because this guy was Japanese and not because he hit the girl that there was so much anger.

Perhaps you recall the rioting at Northwestern University in Xi’an a couple of years ago? Japanese students were almost lynched that time.

.. i admit that CPC is still developing and in some ways,

Ah, yes, the old lie that excuses a passive approach to the situation. Lu Xun said that the problem with Chinese society is that people will see a problem and do nothing to tackle it. He was right then; he is right now.

ChinaBounder said...

Anonymous said…I hate MAO !I hate CPC!!!I hate killer in japan!

Yes, my argument could be boiled down to that -- focus anger on the correct targets, as you do. There is plenty of blame to go round.

Anonymous said...

"Again, I am not at all trying to say ‘The Japanese of that time weren’t so bad.’"

Unfortunately that was what you were trying to say in your post.

shanghai_gay said...

Chinabounder, I want to make love with you. You seem to be so inexperienced with chinese man. No male chinese friend. I will make sure your first time will be totally amazing!!!All kinds of positions.
All those angry chinese men will be happy.
Oh, the fresh asshole of Chinabounder, his total inexperience, be someone's first time, to be remembered forever!!!

I can't wait!!!!

Loki on the run said...

double standard said:


Loki on the run ... "By using the Japanese as convenient scapegoats for the failings of generations of Chinese rulers."

r u confused? cultural revolution and aggression of japan are totally separate events~~~
Dont define any thing by using opinionated words, based on ur logic,could i say ur purpose is "By using the failings of generations of Chinese rulers as convenient scapegoats for the aggression of japan", couldn't i ?


Are you sure you are Chinese? I mean, there is evidence that the average IQ of Chinese is a little above that of Caucasians. Perhaps you are just one of the dumb Chinese.

All actions have consequences ... and a peope with such a strong future time orientation as the Chinese (and Japanese) should be aware of that ...

You really must be dumb if that is the best you can come up with.

double standard said...

Are you sure you are european.... i mean, there is no evidence that the average IQ of you is a little belw that of caucasians, perhaps you are just one of the genius European~~~~

all bias do have consequences~~~a people with such a strong individualism orientation as you should be aware of that~~

you really must be a genius although that u come up noting except following like sheep.

by the way, "By using the dump as convenient scapegoats for your misunderstanding" is not good approach to transfer topics even if you are despicable.

dont be so child any more, read more books to piece up your understanding before commenting on something. you are not dump, but at the moment, you really need to take a dump and read some books.

Loki on the run said...

Double standard says:


all bias do have consequences~~~a people with such a strong individualism orientation as you should be aware of that~~


Ohhh, that's funny. Have you accepted the victimhood mantra of those pathetic losers in the West who can't achieve anything?

The Chinese people I know have more balls than that.

Anonymous said...

Hello, juz here to say that your blog has me glued for 1 hour and running, interesting insights you have about China.

I have to say very much that i am a singaporean chinese, and while the japanese had been in singapore for 3 years, i don't see the same amount of hate in singapore , much like what we see in china.

most of the things/people in china we see, it really does not help the image of some of the other asians in this fair country.

i will not go on to define the problems which you have already stated, as i already know the response of most chinese reading this. anger, hate, and swearing without even bothering with a need for logic and explanations.

Kudos....for a blog nicely done and written.

Regards,
Vic

Sam Whitemoss said...

Chinabounder, this is your best blog entry. I do wish they would get Mao off the banknotes - just so you didn't have to be reminded of him all the time. But, of course, in China, no-one's interested in the unsavoury aspects of China's modern history. And, in the West, people either don't know or don't care. It's very frustrating. I've taken the view that the situation - i.e., getting the Chinese people to engage in a measured assessment of their own history - is hopeless and have simply stopped talking about it. I fully agree with what you say and commend your argument, but you're wasting your breath. No-one cares. It's a pity.

fang said...

对于毛主席的争论,诚然他是犯了很多错误,但是他的动机呢?有人是为了争权,我也曾经这么认为.但是看看今日之社会,使人不得不怀念那个社会.(比如说最近的高莺莺案).所以有人说他的动机不是我们想象得那样邪恶.
虽然有人认为他是个混蛋,却也有人把他奉若神明,我们眼中的恶魔是日本人眼中的圣人,而我们眼中的圣人有何尝不是这个博客的主人眼中的恶魔呢?
我的态度和别人不同,因为我不知道该相信谁的话?这位老外同志,也许你的话有道理,但是我凭什么相信你,就凭你对中国女人的态度我也不敢相信你.

ChinaBounder said...

Fang said……对于毛主席的争论,诚然他是犯了很多错误,但是他的动机呢?

His motive was clear. Power and control. He did not care in the slightest degree about the good of China. To him, Chinese people were just farm animals to be used in any way he chose. Domination was all he cared for. He murdered, wrecked, and tortured China to a greater degree than any other person or force in history.

Peasants described the actions of the CPC, under Mao’s total control, as worse than the Japanese. For example, in the words of one such unfortunate: ”When the Japanese came, at least we could run away. This year (1960) we are simply shut in to die at home. My family had six members and four died..”

Anonymous said...

Yes, Mao is bad, most people are ignorant or misinformed about it, but that is no excuse for the Japanese denying their role in history or Chinabounder shamelessly denying theirs.

So in the end what gives?

His blog post is said, 'The Japanese are not so bad after all because Mao was much worse, so shut up you ignorant Chinese idiots.'

While Chinabounder is entitled to speak freely, he is just as guilty as the CCP in stating his facts and figures and just as one sided.

And Feng said, "...这位老外同志,也许你的话有道理,但是我凭什么相信你,就凭你对中国女人的态度我也不敢相信你."

Translated

"Chinabounder's words have their own logic, but because of the way you (Chinabounder) treats China's girls, it makes me less inclined to trust you."

Foobear said...

Question for Chinabounder: Do you think China is angling to go to war with Japan by stirring Nationalistic feelings? It's what Japan did before WWII, but at the same time when I was in China in 2004, I got no feeling of that.

foobear said...

You might want to read this, as it explains Mao's belief in Hypocrisy:
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-1/mswv1_17.htm

A communist is always encouraged to hold and believe opposing beliefs. In this case: be able to hate Japan for its war crimes while ignoring the atrocities of Mao at the same time.

Loki on the run said...

foobear asks:


Question for Chinabounder: Do you think China is angling to go to war with Japan by stirring Nationalistic feelings? It's what Japan did before WWII, but at the same time when I was in China in 2004, I got no feeling of that.


What an interesting question. Given the excess of males in China, a nasty little ground war would be useful, don't you think.

However, Vietnam, NK, Russia, or India would be better targets.

Anonymous said...

http://whoischinabounder.blogspot.com

Anonymous said...

http://whoischinabounder.blogspot.com

Anonymous said...

http://whoischinabounder.blogspot.com/

Came to Shanghai six years ago
British, probably from a small town.
He is a dog-year guy. so 36 years old.
Teaches english in various universities
Know Jiaotong university well.
Likes to write his msn email on the board at the end of his class.
chinabounder@hotmail.com

Anonymous said...

Two issues:
1) Chinese hatred of Japan: I am an ordinary Chinese and as I ask myself this question some times, why do we hate the Japanese so much? why the the English who waged the Opium war and robbed us of millions of silver, why not the Russians who robbeds us millions of acres of land, no, I don't hate them, not at all. But I DO hate the Japanese with vegence. Why, because they were the most mean and continue to rub salt in the wound of the Chinese nation that was never properly healed. They killed, burned, raped and brutalized China, much much worse than the Nazis, and without a hint of appology, or war repatration. From my point of view, as long as the Japanese goveronment which represent their people, properly appologize through TV to the Chinese for the wars, and kick the 1st class war criminals out of their god damn shrine, then, I am ok with them. Let's start a new page, until then, there's no ceasing of this hatred.

As a british, you surely know that you are the centre of ridicule of the Scotish, Irish and French, and what did you do to them? You did not do 1/1000th of what the Japanese soldiers did to the Chinese.

2) Shanghai slut girls: well, I had lived in Britain for more than 12 years, and I know how slutty some of the English girls are, but again, with the chaos in modern day Chinese spiritual realm, it is really no wonder why there are so many slutty girls falling pray to you, they are naive to believe that westerners are better somehow, and from what your blog shows, we know the opposite is true. But, you are no better than them, you are even lower than these slutty girls. And if you could not bring anything constructive or make sense critism, you'd better bugger off China for good. We don't need your type of maggots!

Anonymous said...

What can I say about you?

As a whole, you and your tribe are less evolved than Chinese, and we are at different stage of evolution. Here are 10 facts, you can search Internet to verify if these are true or not.

1. Your eyebrows are very close to your eyes, and higher above your face surface, your eyes instead, hidden deeply. This is a typical feature of apes. 2. You have lots of hair on your body; this is another typical feature of apes. 3. You have serious stink if you don’t wash yourself just for one day, that is why you must use perfume to expel the bad smell. This is the third typical feature of apes. 4. Your brain size is smaller although you are heavier. 5. The babies in your tribe only pregnant for 40 weeks while we Chinese is 41 weeks, and our babies are heavier than your babies when born. The lower level animal, the smaller the baby is. 6. The twin children happens 4 times per 1000 couples for us but for your tribe it is 6 times. The more babies, the lower evolution level is. 7. Under same condition, the life span of your tribe is 2 years less than us. 8. Your language is easy to learn, and consisted by lots of consonant, while our language is complicated and the reading efficiency is much higher once mastered, and contains lots of vowels. Thus your language is more like animals. 9. The AIDS rate of your tribe is much higher than us. 10. We are more cautious and better capability to concentrate than you, and the mental disease rate is much lower than your tribe.

Anonymous said...

why does a relatively attractive Caucasian guy repeatedly fuck some ugly chinese women(please dont tell me you think Lucy Liu is beatuiful chinese woman, u know what i mean...) and became so cocky that he actually he believed all chinese/asian women actually fell for him for his "large penis"... dude, try without a british passport, n post some of so-called chinese "beauty" pics on ur blog!

Anonymous said...

this English man is absolutly ugly,dirty.
he played around in china and had a lot of fun. and then he started to talked about nonsense by which he intends to show how intelligent and how popular he was.
but now, he is not welcomed by any chinese any more.
he is only a selffish, arrogant english man
take the happiness you got from china to the hell

Anonymous said...

Me: “Did you know that when the war ended Japan left about US$100 billion of assets in China, which it agreed to leave as reparation?”
Student: : “Oh… are you sure? I never heard that.”
Me: “Did you know Japan is China’s number one aid donor?”
Student: : “Oh… are you sure? I never heard that.”

Now let me ask you:
1.how many chinese people were killed by Japaness army during world war two??
2.how much damage caused by Japaness invasion?

you would better shut up and go to fuck those ugly english women. you fool

Anonymous said...

you son of bitch

Anonymous said...

you'll die becoz of venereal disease, dad-blasted english

Anonymous said...

your mother are doomed to die becoz of venereal disease you give her

Anonymous said...

all english man are smelly,ugly,hypocrisy,evil and killable animal.
so are their mothers

Anonymous said...

you brainless animal
20years later,wait

Jack said...

Stupid and disgusting. God won't bless you. You suck.

Anonymous said...

you're such an asshole. Wish you get AIDS ASAP.

Anonymous said...

+g+ i do think it unwise to publish such an article in china, china has the biggest population, u cant bear it... ha...

Anonymous said...

chinabounder, you are challenging chinese people on the sino-japan issue.
it's such a sensitive issue that everyone deals with it very much carefulness

Anonymous said...

son of bitch

Anonymous said...

I will kill you ,motherfucker!

Anonymous said...

Fuck you, Your penis will be rotten and bitten by a dog,

Fuck your sister and your daughter

Anonymous said...

Gosh, another White trash in china. China really need clean up now. America, keep your trash in your country, will you?

Anonymous said...

white trash, go home! you know shit. you are inbred white trash who cannot find a job in your fucking country. you come to china fuck some girls from low class families. That's it! can you hook up with girls from rich and high class families?

Anonymous said...

A British Bastard!

You're an unevolved anamal and punished by your God forever in your life.

Go to the forest and don't destroy Human Being!

Anonymous said...

You don't have the IQ and knowledge to make any comments on the war history between China and Japan. Your ignorance makes me laugh just like all the white trash losers do... Shut your trap and enjoy your low-down life.

As to your affaires with chinese women, I have to thank you for volunteering yourself to gratify the sexual needs of those low-class, indecent, and ugly chinese forgettables. You have nothing better to do anyway being a piece of dirt from Britain.

Anonymous said...

滚回你的老家去!

Anonymous said...

I mean "go to hell!"

Anonymous said...

Cheap men can easily meet with cheap ladies. It happens everywhere. There's nothing for you to brag about.

Western girls are just more slutty, but not any smarter. Because they've seen too many and have been fooled by too many jerky fools like you ever since they were teenagers or even younger. Say, that famous 6-year old beauty queen. So if a Chinese girl can get the point of the same lesson after one bad experience, while most American girls have spent their whole 20 years to learn, that's not too bad.

Anonymous said...

Above, u made a tiny mistake. This guy couldnt find any good chicks in his country at all. Why would he fucking come here if he could? His mom and grandma, maybe sisters and ex-gf were all fucked by chinese...so he wants to revenge.

foobear said...

Look at the idiot Chinese, too cowardly to post even with a fake internet handle.

Anonymous said...

fuck you

Anonymous said...

fuck you

Anonymous said...

Man, you are such a loser and racist. Since generally white man is superficial, I am still surprised to see how dumb you are. I strongly doubt if you are a white man, are you negro or according to 'white gentlemen', black people? If you are, I totally understand then.

I lived in USA for many years. I would like to share with you my sex experience with white women and men, yes, men. To me, white women are basically cows. The only thing they are good at is to please you on the bed. They can suck very well. Though almost every time, the white girls would like me to fuck them with my big gun, I refused. Because their pussies and asses are not tight. They are female dogs, right bitches. Instead, I fuck white men. I cannot remember how many white men I fucked. I would say compare to those white cows, white men have tighter asses but still dumb. And I was shocked at the first time by how cheap they are. I know 90% white men having big dick but not hard enough. So every time, the white guys and girls are fucking crazy about my perfect dick. yes, I am proud of my gun. Once I fucked a white guy in front of his girl friend. Man, it's such a good experience.
So, from what I have experienced, white women and men are female dogs, again bitches. They are dumb, really dumb, (the college students even don't know how to transfer 50% to 0.5). But they are terrific to give my load. So if you are a young and hot white guy, contact me, i would like to fuck you as hard as I can. Please be young, I never have sex with a white guy or girl above 20.

ChinaBounder said...

Anonymous said... Man, you are such a loser and racist. Since generally white man is superficial, I am still surprised to see how dumb you are. I strongly doubt if you are a white man, are you negro


Hoist by your own petard. Wow.

ChinaBounder said...

Anonymous said... You don't have the IQ and knowledge to make any comments on the war history between China and Japan. Your ignorance makes me laugh just like all the white trash losers do... Shut your trap and enjoy your low-down life.

Then it should be easy for you to disprove my argument.

Please do.

ChinaBounder said...

Anonymous said... You're an unevolved anamal and punished by your God forever in your life.

See, appealing to a feeble-minded fairy tale, `god,’ is hardly the way to win your argument. If you are still at the stage of believing that spirits in the sky watch and judge and rule your life, then you have not progressed very far in life. And you have nothing to say to me.

ChinaBounder said...

Anonymous said... Above, u made a tiny mistake. This guy couldnt find any good chicks in his country at all. Why would he fucking come here if he could?

It’s certainly true. Surely I said this already?

Anonymous said...

The blogger are retarded and has no balls.

What if I say how pathetic a white woman could be in bed because of her wierd body smell and lousy, loose pussy. I slept with one, I do not want to touch no more.

I must admit there are many gorgeous white women, but, as far as I know, they like black dicks more than your white toothpick.

Anonymous said...

what kind of trash goes to china?? i thought china was a huge trash dump, apparently its now filled with white trash too

Anonymous said...

ur son of a bitch...

Anonymous said...

fu*k you! get out from China!! JERK
SHAME ON U AS A HUMAN BEING! NO
U MUST BE JUST A PIG
AND SORRY FOR PIGS...I CAN'T THINK OF OTHER ANIMALS RIGHT NOW

Anonymous said...

and fuck you mother

Anonymous said...

i hope you can be killed by someone
seriously, i do hope so.
and of course, the killer can live his/her life happily ever after. why? because he/she does the best thing for us human beings to clean the ugliest trash in the world

ChinaBounder said...

anonymous said…fu*k you! get out from China!! JERK SHAME ON U AS A HUMAN BEING! NO U
MUST BE JUST A PIG AND SORRY FOR PIGS...I CAN'T THINK OF OTHER ANIMALS
RIGHT NOW


Indeed. You seem to be doing a poor job of thinking at all.

ChinaBounder said...

anonymous said…i hope you can be killed by someone
seriously, i do hope so. and of course, the killer can live his/her life happily ever after. why? because he/she does the best thing for us human beings to clean the ugliest trash in the world


Are you so ignorant, so short sighted, that you think this kind of stuff is effective? Do you truly not see that in spouting such absurd nonsense you will make any rational reader of this blog incline to me rather than you? Have you so little sense of perspective that you think the trivial way I live my life is worth such anger?

Anonymous said...

ChinaBounder said..."But it really does not matter whether you believe what I write is true or not. What should matter is that this is what life is like in Shanghai. This is what we are. Look: I am not going to change. The girls are easy, and 90% of men on the planet would take advantage of that if they could. Men of any nation, any culture; we would all do it if we could."

Indeed, he really raises serious social issues in China, and the Chinese have to better educate the public so that poeple like him have no place there. It is not easy...

Anonymous said...

You're really the trash of the human being. I wonder whose bitch brought such bastard to the world. It's time to clean this trash out of the humane society.

Go back to Pluto - You're not welcomed in this planet.

Anonymous said...

But of course this is precisely why the CPC encourages hatred of Japan. In doing so, it can take the minds of the people off internal problems and focus them on external ones. The way that the CPC uses the appalling cruelty of wartime Japan to bolster its grip on power shows the most breathtakingly arrogant cynicism, the most profound contempt for the suffering of the Chinese people of the time. But most people here are blind to this.

chinabounder, you are absolutely right. I agree with you.
china is such a complicated country with lot of problems. now, it's time to figure out what sort of problems it has. and then we maybe find out the way to resolve these problem.

the first thing need to do is awake chinese people, and change their ignorance, educate them.

it will take a long time. i know. but, at least, i am trying to do that right now.

keep going, chinabounder, don't give up facing china's problems. you will be regret if you ture to ignor china's problem.

it's a great thing in the whole life. bcz what you are doing maybe will change the 1.3 billion people's fate.

i suggest you to post the translation of your english article on your blog along with the orignal english article. so that the chinese people will understand much better.
maybe i could do that translation job for you. for free, of course!
i will send you an email.
best regards
nick

Anonymous said...

死老外!!!
你死回英格兰去!!!

Anonymous said...

Definitely,sooner or later We will find you,We can!

Anonymous said...

please identify yourself as an english

Anonymous said...

You are a son of a bitch!Your mother and your grandmother were fucked by the pig!

Anonymous said...

Why don't u take the erotic writer as ur career? I think that will be better for u. U such a idiot and loser!

Anonymous said...

你的大脑有问题吗,你以为你是谁??你知道什么,你有多了解中国,你这个自以为是的畜牲,我生为中国的女人,生为中国一位的大学生,让我发表几点:1.对于你能勾引到中国最没有品位女人有什么好值得骄傲的,为什么中国有修养的有品位的漂亮女人未曾看过你一眼.要知道中国最低贱的才愿意和你这样的人打交道,物以类聚,人以群分. 2,你怎么知道中国的男人没有能力,你之前是否与中国男人有过关系,比如被中国男人上过,没有满足,所以才有这个经历之谈,如果没有,那么怎么知道的,还是你的那些俗不可耐中国的女人在想和你做爱之前对你抱怨的,请记住了,也许她们只是为了和你做爱,所以为了达到这个目的才在你面前故做委屈,说她们的男人怎样,但是也许你不知道也只有你这样的白痴才会被欺骗.其实也许你不知道,她们私底下是多么的满足她们的中国男人的能力.而你,竟然愚昧到会相信这一切的程度,从而导致你犯下如此大的错误,想想你多么的可悲啊.而更可悲的是你竟然还没有意识到这些,还在那里象疯狗一样的发颠.3.你以为你是谁,你怎么知道中国的历史文化,你这样的一个小小的流氓外籍老师,以为自己学了一点中文,在中国呆了几年,玩了几个丑陋的老婆婆,在中国就开始滔滔不绝的谈论中国,真是可笑!!

Anonymous said...

我怀疑你的支持者都是你的那一帮垃圾,故意在你的博客上写一些支持你的语言,假装有人支持你一样的,其实是你发动他们的.或者是你自己又当观众又当演员在自己博客上上演一系列让人发笑的戏剧.真是愚蠢极了,你这个无知的流氓.

Anonymous said...

you better hide urself really good, coz im gonna find u, rape ur ass, n castrate ur little brother, dont worry, im not gonna kill u tho
BE CAREFUL LOL

Anonymous said...

chinabounder!!you did do the wrong thing in the wrong time in the wrong place.who do you think you are. Are you Chinese? no ,you are not, so China business is nothing to do with you,you are a total pervert. as a Chinese wowan, I am not interested in how you feel now , I am interested how you will die future. If you think Chinese people will not kill you, OK! why do you put you real picture and home adress on you blog, and let we see...

Anonymous said...

ChinaBounder:
you are way way way way too shallow in international politics as well as Japs and Japanese culture. How much time you have spent in Japan? It is obvious that you do not know japan much and you are using excuses made by the japanese "government officials" when the text book issue was brought up internationally. Remember it is not only China-Japan propblem. The education system was interfred by the Jap government as much as in China. If you go there and teach, you should be able to find this. You are much biased in viewing chinese male as well as all piolitical issues. Go see Korea, criticise on attitude of japan dealing with WW2 issues, is much much mroe intense. it is also true that shoutheastern asian countries are also aginast koizumi's yasukuni temple visits. Are these countries are all over critisizing????? Look, who is a friend of Japan? I have asked this question to many japanse and no one can surely point out a country that they think it is a friend of japan. They are not even confident on US, ofcourse nor your country. As matter of fact, many japs do think you whites are monkeys. in Japan, "gaijin" is a word used to refer a foreigner, and it is a word with a flavor of discrimination.
Well, the only readability of your blog is in the descriptions on how do you seduce and do sex with those chinese women. Just keep on this please. Someday I hope I can going to Shanghai too.

Anonymous said...

If you think that Chinabounder sucks, then hope more people to know about him.
If you think what ChinaBounder wrote is acually what happened in Shanghai and China, and hope more people to aware about it.

Translate it into Chinese.
send it to chinabounder.chinese@gmail.com
We will post it over
http://chinabounderinchinese.blogspot.com/index.html

Anonymous said...

if you are brave enough,tell me where
you are working,
than ..
prepare to be fucked

my email:zywmhzwp@sina.com.cn
or 231746238@qq.com

Phil said...

too bad your blog is now restricting access. I hope it will open some day soon. as a chinese man, i do not agree with everything you wrote but i want to read what you write just to know some different opinions about some of our history and of course our culture.

Anonymous said...

Don't let me find you, you mother fucker! I will KILL you!

Anonymous said...

This author is really a shameless disgusting Son Of Bitch! Precisely son of a British Bitch with possibly a Japanese Dog Father. Oh, I almost forgot, both Britan and Japan are Bitches of US, so you are always Son of Bitches no matter you are a british or japanese, right? haha. Just comfort, God will send you to the Hell very soon, and you will stay there forever.

Anonymous said...

My fiancee is Chinese, from the countyside though we live in Shanghai. This blog post firmly describes our relationship when we talk about China history of the past 100 years. I always get a "I never heard this, really? No... Well, you are seeing only one side!!!" and then when it sinks in I get "It was all in the past, some mistakes were made, why do you want to think about it?? It has nothing to do with us and people our age, it was all in the PAST!". I can only roll my eyes at these types of replies.

It plays out the same way with any other Chinese, quite frustrating as we would know. While she is still in China, there's no dicussion about it. When I bring her to the US soon, she'll eventually have to understand past what she was forced to learn and accept while growing up in China. I just find it fascinating how double standards and hypocrasy are so normal within the culture, people, and government. People are so acceptable to the idea of growing up as a drone, spitting out some children, and shutting up about it.

I have a love/hate relationship with this place, but at least being foreign I am allowed to have my opinion.

I also find the Chinrigh insults extremely hilarious on all these posts.

Anonymous said...

Bounder,

I'm curious: in your opinion, what proportion of Chinese know that Mao killed more Chinese than Tojo?

If the Japanese did indeed kill 300,000 people in Nankng, they're responsible for about 1/256 as much crime in China as the Red Dynasty is.

Anonymous said...

I'm a Chinese American woman who has super strong opinions about Chinese history and especially the relationship that China has with Japan.

I'm surprised to find that I agree with you on many levels.. I also am frankly just tired of the China/Japan hatred. But you must understand that 60 years is not a "long" time persay. that's pretty fresh for many individuals, especially those who survived a massacre such as what happened at Nanjing. It IS certainly something that people will cry over, and rightfully so. They need to let it out - let them.. don't judge them for it. These are traumatic events, just looking at the book by Iris Chang - "Rape of Nanking" made me want to cry, and I'm even more far removed from the incident than the young generation of Chinese natives who are so affected by what's happened.

I also completely agree with what you said about Mao. Gosh, I just get happy reading about it. I'm from Shanghai and I always make some snide comments here and there about Mao - about how he's a murderer of his own people, a horrible human being, and how he should've never existed. And my parents totally rebuke me, but not too forcefully, normally they say something like.. yes, but he united the country, so you have to commend him for that. You can tell that they agree with me in some ways, but that they can't see him as ALL bad. I understand that.. but to me all the millions of lives lost just jar me into anger. I am FAR more angry at Mao than at the Japanese. So yes, it's good to see that you have a fair opinion on things, though I think you would do well to see through the eyes of a Chinese person when it comes to these atrocities. Yes.. it is an emotional thing.

ChinaBounder said...

Thanks for that thoughtful comment, Anon. A pity you did not leave a name!

I think 60 years is long enough in that this tragedy should no longer be viewed as exclusively Chinese. It is a tragedy for the whole human race. None of the younger generation in China today have been directly affected by the Japanese invasion, and so I feel they have no greater ‘right’ to be upset than any person does. I too am horrified by the sheer cruelty of what Japan did, and I don’t think China has any legitimacy to ‘privilege’ its reaction towards Japan. I want to cry every bit as much as you, and just because you’re Chinese should not make your emotion about it any deeper, since you no more experienced it directly than I did. I hope I’ve made my meaning clear; I am not trying to minimize the horror of what happened in any way.

It is of course a wholly different story for those who experienced the war, and I have said several times in the blog that their anger towards Japan is fully justified, and their hatred too.

I wonder if you have seen Lu Chuan’s ‘City of Life and Death,’ which attempts to move beyond this polarized view of the war? He tried to show that the Japanese soldiers were just people, not ‘animals,’ and that in a similar situation he might have done the same. He said, ‘My way of seeing [the massacre] was not down to some problem in the Japanese cultural psyche; the problem lies with the notion of war itself. War makes a person, or an entire nation, crazy, and people do things they normally wouldn’t have imagined doing.”

That sounds pretty reasonable, doesn’t it? But you won’t be surprised to hear, I guess, that he has received death threats and been told that he is ‘not Chinese.’ No surprise there!

And like you indeed I am more angry at Mao than the Japanese. In my opinion he did far more harm to China than anything Hirohito’s armies managed.

ChinaBounder said...

Thanks for that thoughtful comment, Anon. A pity you did not leave a name!

I think 60 years is long enough in that this tragedy should no longer be viewed as exclusively Chinese. It is a tragedy for the whole human race. None of the younger generation in China today have been directly affected by the Japanese invasion, and so I feel they have no greater ‘right’ to be upset than any person does. I too am horrified by the sheer cruelty of what Japan did, and I don’t think China has any legitimacy to ‘privilege’ its reaction towards Japan. I want to cry every bit as much as you, and just because you’re Chinese should not make your emotion about it any deeper, since you no more experienced it directly than I did. I hope I’ve made my meaning clear; I am not trying to minimize the horror of what happened in any way.

It is of course a wholly different story for those who experienced the war, and I have said several times in the blog that their anger towards Japan is fully justified, and their hatred too.

I wonder if you have seen Lu Chuan’s ‘City of Life and Death,’ which attempts to move beyond this polarized view of the war? He tried to show that the Japanese soldiers were just people, not ‘animals,’ and that in a similar situation he might have done the same. He said, ‘My way of seeing [the massacre] was not down to some problem in the Japanese cultural psyche; the problem lies with the notion of war itself. War makes a person, or an entire nation, crazy, and people do things they normally wouldn’t have imagined doing.”

That sounds pretty reasonable, doesn’t it? But you won’t be surprised to hear, I guess, that he has received death threats and been told that he is ‘not Chinese.’ No surprise there!

And like you indeed I am more angry at Mao than the Japanese. In my opinion he did far more harm to China than anything Hirohito’s armies managed.