Tuesday, August 12, 2008

Reason Number 17 - Faux Pop-Culture

‘Fault Lines On The Face Of China: 50 Reasons Why China May Never Be Great’ - Excerpt 33
“Mando-pop (Mandarin pop music) is characterized by softness. No hard edges are exposed where young people might cut themselves some independent thinking. No difficult subject matter interferes with the music from mesmerizing young minds.

The typical male mando-pop star is a designed metrosexual. Reasonably good looking, his hair, never long, is designed to gently fracture his face, the eyes possibly kohl shadowed. It is permissible to unbutton the shirt exposing an oiled, or sparkled hairless chest. Wiry thin, dressed in dark tones or blinding bright colors, the male mando-pop star whispers his song, never yelling, at least until the penultimate moment when all the girls will have their hearts stolen as the music in its crescendo closing requires our star to give it all he has.

In the audience hearts and glow sticks are all a flutter. One, possibly two well-mannered girls jump up on stage with bouquets of flowers. Our male star offers his cheek which the two girls shyly kiss, to the orgasmic cheer of the audience. Glow sticks flutter double time.

For the typical mando-pop female star, perfect in her makeup, dress and hair must be wistful, wishful and virginal. No sex allowed. That is reserved for Japanese, Korean, and Taiwanese pop stars. If she can produce a tear, not during the song but when her adoring fans shriek her name through their glow sticks, a tear that she wipes away ever so gently with a single finger, then her concert will be considered a smash.

The songs are soft, breathy love ballads, almost spoken, and with the one essential quality that guarantees their success – they can be sung by anyone.

It is in the KTV parlors that a mando-pop’s star quality is manufactured. Hundreds of thousands of locations throughout China require the latest superstar efforts to be available for local singing fans, 15 to 25 years old, to duplicate the sounds of their favorites. If you can sell your songs to the KTV palaces, you are ensured stardom.

The kids can’t sing rock ‘n roll, so don’t bother making it. It’s just too Western for sensitive Chinese ears. And rock n’ roll just might tell the kids something they do not even want to hear.”

ChinaBounder comments:

So already that spectacular Olympic opening show is unraveling. The ‘firework footprint’ was faked, a hash-up of computer graphics – though to be fair it was totally obvious it was computer generated when it was played, and I am surprised anyone thought it would pass for real.

But today it was revealed that the little girl who gave a solo song was faking it too. This girl, Lin Miaoke, was a last-minute replacement for Yang Peiyi. Yang, it was planned, would sing the song live; and indeed the song that the world heard was sung by Yang. But Yang did not make it to the stage because – get this – her teeth were too crooked. And those crooked teeth apparently were a threat to China’s national dignity.

According to Chen Qigang, who was the music designer for the show, Yang was chosen for her perfect voice. But then some cocksucker from the Poltiburo came down “who gave us his opinion: It must change.”

China has changed - that’s what I’m often told. I say bollocks to that. China’s change is only superficial. All the shit surrounding the Olympics – the waste of money, the press-ganged thousands of performers, the poor thrown out of their homes and the rural workers thrown out of the city – the chest-beating, the boasting, the sheer mendacity of it. It’s all straight out of the CPC fuck-humanity copy book.

After all, what is this episode of insufficiently cute Yang Peiyi but the same old shit as no-longer-liked leaders being airbrushed out of photos?

Yang is seven years old. Imagine what a lifelong memory appearing in the opening ceremony would have been for her. And imagine what a memory it will be for her now. Imagine how she’ll feel about it.

This is more than just a story of China faking it to live up to some fairytale image of itself, a past that has been mythologized beyond far beyond reality. In fact it’s fucking despicable – Yang Peiyi has, in effect, been told that she looks so unattractive that she’d bring shame to her whole nation.

When China’s leaders can do that kind of shit to China’s children, how much of a fuck do you think they give for the rest of China’s citizens?

‘Fault Lines On The Face Of China: 50 Reasons Why China May Never Be Great’ - Excerpt 34
“While young Chinese people are fascinated with overseas culture, that culture is most often presented to them in a highly controlled fashion – Western Culture with Chinese Characteristics. It is a simplified, sanitized version of Western culture, with anything thought-provoking or challenging scrubbed out.

The huge success of the US TV show ‘American Idol’ led Chinese TV to invent its own version of the show, which it called ‘Super Girl’ (or, to give it its full name, ‘Mongolian Cow Sour Yogurt Super Girl Contest.’) Aired in 2005, this proved extremely popular, with more than 400 million people watching the final episode. The show, in all practical terms, copied the American production.

However, in 2007, the State Administration of Radio, Film and Television (SARFT) issued ‘a list of rules to uphold high moral standards on a sequel.’ These rules said that the show ‘should include only “healthy and ethically inspiring” songs and try to avoid “gossip” about the contestants and scenes of fans screaming and wailing, or losing contestants in tears.’ In other words, less emotionally American.

The censors also ordered the title of the show to be changed, banning use of the word ‘super’ along with ‘girl’ (it became ‘Happy Boys’ Voice’ instead), restricted its running time to six weeks, and ‘decreed their hairstyles, clothes, fashion accessories, language and manners should be in line with the mainstream values.’ There was to be ‘No weirdness, no vulgarity, no low taste,’ and contestants from outside China were banned. Once again, Chinese culture was copying the West, yet Party bosses were dictating that culture should be a pale shadow of ‘Chinese characteristics.’

While Chinese people today are consumed by Western culture, the culture they actually receive is thus very carefully controlled. Chinese society appropriates Western culture without actually understanding what it means, sometimes producing a Western culture with Chinese characteristics / Chinese culture with Western characteristics hybrid.

Sadly, it is not only Chinese understanding of Western culture that is weak. It is now becoming true that Chinese people’s understanding of Chinese culture is also weakening. Young people tend to follow their peers in the chase to be popular. What is popular now in China has virtually nothing to do with Chinese history, traditions or culture. The result is a pseudo-culture environment leading eventually to a huge generation gap between children and their parents larger than anything that has ever existed in the West."


Remember that under all the fakery and manipulation that China has poured into the Olympics, its colonies still suffer. 'T' for Tibet and 'X' for Xinjiang.

56 comments:

Wright B said...

Yup, all bluff, fakery and no substance, typically totalitarian.

I wonder what induced Chen Qigang, the ceremony's music director, to publicly admit the change of singer and a staff member to admit that most of the fireworks were computer-generated?

I also wonder what their jobs will be next month - Coal miner? Minefield clearance troop leader? Crash test dummy?

$RubberMan said...

FAKE ALSO IS THE 'OUTRAGE' OF CHINESE GUYS ABOUT THEIR WOMEN...AT LEAST THE WOMEN IN THE ARMS OF MEN OF OTHER CULTURES.

I HAVE READ SOME OF THE PREVIOUS VOCAL EMISSIONS FROM THE MEN OF CHINA, BUT HAVE NEVER ACTUALLY SEEN ANY 'OUTRAGED' CHINESE MEN IN ACTION.

WIMPY WIMPY WIMPY IS ALL I HAVE EVER SEEN....EXCEPT OF COURSE AT THE JAPANESE/CHINA FOOTBALL GAME .

BUT THEN THERE WAS COMPANY. OUTRAGED CHINESE GUY BY HIMSELF?
NOPE! NEVER CAN HAPPEN....WE CHINESE ALWAYS NEED COMPANY.

FAKE RUNS IN THE BLOOD.

Anonymous said...

AT THE VERY LEAST, THE WHOLE OLYMPIC THING IS WELL WITHIN CHINESE HAND.

LOOK AT YOU BRIT.

YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE THE GUT AND COURAGE TO PRODUCE GOOD FOOTBALL TEAMS AND PLAYERS ALIKE.

CHELSEA IN PARTICULAR IS OWNED, CCOACHED AND PLAYED BY OTHER CULTURES. IT IS WORST THAN YOUR WOMEN HELD BY OTHER CULTURES. BRIT INVENTED MODERN FOOTBALL BUT NOW OTHER CULTURES NURSE BRIT ON FOOTBALL.

BRIT FOOTBALL CAN'T DO WITHOUT OTHER CULTUREs FOR ONE SINGLE FUCKING DAY. THAT'S BRILLIANT.

Anonymous said...

chinabounder, $rubberman and your white-pride compatriots:

since 1940, you brits has not been winning ANY SINGLE WAR against Asian or Orientals.

Look at your grand grand fathers and mothers lining up surrending to Japanese imperial commanders in Singapore and Malaysia.

Sorry Burma was won by Chinese KMT army. Brits ran like chickens.

Sorry Koreaan war proved that Brits were useless in battlefield being hitted so hard by Chinese CCP army.

ask MI5 and MI6 you will know the true China is not what you thought.

Wright B said...

Ah, look, here come all the courageous little Anony-Mouses again.....

Anonymous said...

Yep Wright b, the news about those gutless little Anony-Mouses taking back Hong Kong and there was not a damn thing the brave GREAT britain could do about it was also fake.

Happy now? :-D

Anonymous said...

Bravo to using modern technology ie computer graphics to enhance the overall presentation. Must be a shock to cave dwelling Brits like this Chinabounder idiot though.

And who said it had to be real singing? The director wasn't "admitting" anything he was simply giving a routine briefing on how the show was put together. What's wrong with using a more presentable girl that went better with the overall presentation? FYI, those women in the SILK ROAD segment of the ceremony weren't actually flying in mid-air too, LOL.

Grow the fuck up. The little girl wasn't there to give you a live concert. She was but one of the performers in a large ceremony of thousands of performers.

Got it now? Your bitterness has messed up your half-evolved-to-begin-with brain.

Anonymous said...

Rock n' Roll is about drugs, fucking, and kicking ass. It's probably better the Chinese don't mess with that stuff anyway.

Ha ha, KTV... I was overjoyed to find the Pixies one time, and gave my Chinese friends a pretty good rendition of Debaser. They will never, ever understand.

David said...

Well, as one of the Anony-Mouses(ha! nice one wright) told me sarcastically yesterday "How about I openly point at your nose in front of 100 people? you will be very HAPPY to make friend with me."

Well, the Chinese government has just pointed at 9-year-old Yang Pei-Yi in front of 1,400,000,000 people and told her that she's too ugly to appear on television.

Do you see my point?

Anonymous said...

FAKE THIS FAKE THAT.

MOUSE THIS MOUSE THAT.

GET REAL LOOK AT THE MEDAL TABLE, BRIT IS NOWHERE NEAR GREATER CHINA.

CANCEL LONDON OLYMPIC FOR BRIT IS USELESS TO EVEN RUN THEIR UNDERGROUND TRAINS SMOOTHLY.

LOOK AT YOUR HEATHROW T5 OPENING, UK IS NEVER A GREAT NATION, NO ANYMORE AND ALL THE WAY DOWN.

LOOK AT YOUR FOOTBALL CLUBS, THEY CAN LIVE WITHOUT OTHER CULTURES' MONEY AND TALENTS.

Anonymous said...

calling people "mouse" does not alter the fact that Brits is useless in battlefield against Orientals.

100,000 men and women lined up saluting Japanese imperial warlords.

David said...

Yes, Beijing Terminal 3 is a wonderful creation before which we must bow down and knock head, designed by unworthy barbarian, the Brit Norman Foster... :)

Anonymous said...

right Norman Foster I see....

the very reason UK cannot support its OWN talent like Norman Foster with good project and he has to go overseas to seek project.

This reason alone show how UK is a nation ever going down hill including its people like you.

we have Yao Ming, does it mean Chinese basketball is a world domination.

Sallow people like you DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS. Go and watch your premier league where other cultures dominates the horizon.

David said...

So,

1) Brit (Norman Foster) comes to work in China means Britain is going down.

2) Premier League (foreign players) come to work in Britain also means Britain is going down?

Make up your mind.....

Wright B said...

Actually, the girl with the lovely voice who wasn't allowed to appear on TV for being too ugly was not 9 years old. She was just 7.

I bet she feels good right now.

Anonymous said...

JUST ADMITTED THE FACT THAT LITTLE england WITH PEOPLE LIKE YOU CANNOT DO A THING WITHOUT "OTHER CULTURES".

HEATHROW T5 IS A SHIT PIECE OF WORK DONE BY british GOVERNMENT.

MY POINT IS THAT YOU HAVE NOTHING TO BE PROUD OF.

CANCEL LONDON OLYMPIC FOR GOOD.

IN wright b's SIMPLE MIND. THE GIRL AT 7 WILL BE UPSET AND PISSED. THIS IS WHY LOOKING AT YOU, LITTLE ENGLAND HAS NO HOPE IN THE FUTURE APART FROM PROVIDING PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND chinabounder SELLING SEX STORY FOR LIVING. WHAT TO SELL NEXT? YOUR MOTHER AND SISTER PERHAPS WHEN THERE IS A PRICE TO OFFER.

SHALLOW AND COWARD LIKE YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PARTICIPATION AND PUBLICITY.

Anonymous said...

David,

Hardly analogous. More like this, how about someone pointing at an imaginable mole on your skin and call you deformed? That's what you're doing here constantly to China.

As in any performance some will get an unexpected chance from the director and some will not, according to the director's vision. That's all there is to it.

Anonymous said...

The Brits have also designed prisons where they can torture the local Iraqis without getting seen. Very brilliant people these Brits.

chinabounder said...

I am very sorry to Chinese People

Forgive me and I will do good thing to help other people,especially the poor.

I will shut up my mouth after the Olympic.

Anonymous said...

chinabounder..

Don't be sorry to the chinese, they are the ones who should be sorry to Tibet and Xinjiang..

Chinese are a bunch of hipocrits.

You are doing a hell of a good job telling the truth as it is.. And if chinese don't like it.. they have the option of not reading this blog.

The truth had been said.

Anonymous said...

OH PLEASE DON'T THROW YOUR TOWEL IN THE RING.

DO NOT DO GOODIES TO CHINESE. PLEASE DON'T. HONESTLY.

THIS IS NOT MY PURPOSE.

MY PURPOSE IS TO GET YOU TO DO MORE BAD THINGS TO CHINESE, WOMEN IN PARTICULAR. JUST TO SPEED UP THE BREAKING DOWN OF A MYTH THAT "ALL WESTERN MAN ARE GENTLEMEN". YOU AND ME KNOW THIS IS A MYTH. BUT WITH YOUR HELP THIS MYTH CAN BE BROKEN DOWN MORE EFFECTIVELY. YOU KNOW YOU ARE NO CHRIS PLUMMER OF "SOUND OF MUSIC" WHOSE GENTLEMAN LIKE IMAGE IS DEEP SEEDED IN CHINESE WOMEN HEARTS AND MINDS.

TAKING ADVANTAGE OVER YOUR PUPIL IS WHAT YOU DO THE BEST.

PLEASE KEEP ON DOING WHAT YOU ARE DOING NOW. YOU ARE A FRIEND OF CHINESE MALE. LOOK. SINCE WE CAME AROUND, YOU GET MORE COMMENTS.

WE ARE NOT SAD PEOPLE LIKE brits.

chinabounder said...

I know

Anyway, I will stop after after the Olympic

Leo said...

OK, this story about the openning ceremony is blown out of proportions. Lets get the facts straight:

1. The REAL footprint fireworks did take place outside of the stadium during the openning event. Please check with your various CREDIBLE western media sources. They had, if their credibility worth anything at all, all included without exception explainations that the actual footprint fireworks did take place despite the CG video feed.

You can even find the real fireworks on youtube.

2. The NBC, while broadcasting, did mention that the CG part of the video being "a bit of cheat here" and "this is a sort of animation". There was never an intention to conceal the fact that the actual fireworks and the video feed are two separate things.

The reason for the CG video is because it would have been impossible to capture the footprint fireworks in live time. The helicopter would have had to follow closely the direct lines of fire, and probablly it would have included many other technical difficulties as well.

Anyways, I guess what I want to say to Chinabounder is that it just goes to show how quickly you jump at these opportunities to attack China. Sometimes without even giving it a deeper thought or checking the validity of your claims. Your opinions of China are so fixed in many aspects that I honestly hope this rigid thinking does not hinder your ability to keep an open mind about the other side of the argument or other perspectives. As long as you keep an open mind, friend, I think you will not go off course. Otherwise, how will you ever realize the dangers of you turning prejudice.

I do say prejudice because many of your readers are already displaying prejudice in their comments. They cannot really give a fair analysis of the subject at hand because of whatever biased opinions they've been fed on. I have to say that the Chinese seem to have a larger crowd of overly sensitive and agitated people. It is a clear sign that they do not do their own thinkings, and it shows insufficient educations, ignorance and stupid vanity. However, the values and believes of the typical western side, the side which you seem to adopt a closer dispostion to, is equally misleading and, at times, deceiving. So what is the point of two biased group bickering at each other? Neither will listen to the other side, and the truth is lost in between.

I've taken my time to write the following article so I sincerely hope you take your time to read through them. You will find that I raise many points that are typical "Chinese" at a first glance but they will be explained more deeply and thoroughly as never been done to you before. However, please do not hesitate to school my errors if you find any illness in my logic or assumptions. I am very open, and I do this in hope that you are willing to explore perspectives that may be foreign to you, perhaps once you've seen things in a different light, you can make your judgements of the right and wrong with new knowledge. I hope we both share the dedication to truth.

First of all, a lot of the things you mentioned in your vigorous essays are all true. China is a nation with problems. The health, the pollution, the corruption, the farmers, the miners, the low class in general, the loss of integrity and character, the disrespect of life. However, instead of attacking the problems at face values, a lot of them require deeper understandings. Many typical western arguments fall short EXACTLY BECAUSE THEY MAKE JUDGEMENTS TOO QUICKLY, AND ALMOST ALWAYS BASED ON THEIR VALUE SYSTEM, THEIR PERCEIVED RIGHT AND WRONG.

For example, I will first go back to Fa Lun Gong because I am decently knowledgeable in that area. The typical western believes value individual's freedom of faith or religious practice. I agree with most of your writings regarding Fa Lun Gong. It is a Qi Gong variant, and it is solely due to political reasons that it is being banished. However, there are a few things you will need to know. First of all, the majority of China understands the reason for Fa Lun Gong's banishment is entirely political, as opposed to your belief, there wasn't much need for 'cover-up' here. We all know what the deal is. It is a minor detail, but I thought you should know.

Another fact not many people know but could have guessed is Fa Lun Gong's leadership circle masterplanned a series of events that led to the negotions between a delegation of five Fa Lun Gong representatives and the state council. Their agenda is to force the CPC to accept the Fa Lun Gong leader, Li Hong Chi, as the new Prime Minister of China. The whole events took place in many levels and are very complicated, however, in short, they consequently resulted Fa Lun Gong's downfall by alarming the CPC leadership to properly review its true extent of threats thus playing a tight hand against it. I dare say that ANY government with any capability to decently run a country would have crushed such a crazy group of bastards. One simply does not make demands like that. You may argue that in a free democratic western society, they would have gotten the chance to run at an election, and perhaps be given the opportunity to win votes to achieve their goals. We all know that this is idealistic speaking. The real world social mechanism and political systems do not function like that. Before any new idea gets in your head, let me define this event as follow: "a group of crazy bastards who have been feeding craps to themselves for such a long time that they started to honestly believe in their delusions and started to believe they actually can run the country and should run the country in conformity with their Fa Lun Gong believes."

In the real world, the government assess threats and make moves accordingly. THAT IS WHY A COMMUNIST PARTY DOES NOT GET MUCH CHANCE IN THE UNITED STATES. We all know that a communist does not preach wife sharing or equal wealth, but this is the kind of crap the US government fed to its people so that the true and nobler communist ideas would never ever spread among its people. The moral of the story is, a ruling party does what it has to do to eliminate threats. In the case of Fa Lun Gong, it is an entirely acceptable practice and necessary evil to maintain social order and stability.

Furthur evidence to support this particular action to disband Fa Lun Gong and supress its followers, let me tell you that Fa Lun Gong is not exactly a Qi Gong varianet. It is a very misleading and devilish form of practice. Its teachings blur the sense of right and wrong. For example, it suggests "Killing is acceptable or even a good action if you are about to achieve immortal status, because you elevate their souls to the heavenly kingdom you are about to create when you reach immortal status, and the souls will continue to live as residents in your heavenly kingdom." I can find the original chinese words for you in its teaching. It also preaches a lot of non-sense about techniques to follow to achieve this immortal status. It is very detrimental bullshit to perceptions that would eventually lead believers astray if invested with too much devotion. By being led astray, I mean endangering one's own life and the lives of others around him. It is truely something the world can do without, and does not deserve sympathy, except to feel sorry for those who believed too much. This is EVIL, and I am glad they did not get their chances.

However, I am not here to justify the CPC for their actions.

For one thing, I am simply explaining that the western values do not apply in the simple manner a typical westerners want them to apply. A lot of the times when you examine issues involving human rights or democracy, you have to know the matters fully to comprehend its complexity. If taken at face value, the Chinese government may have violated the rights of these individuals of Fa Lun Gong, while in truth, had CPC "respected" these people's rights, allowed them continued growth and operation, it would have been like setting off a hound in China's backyard.

For another thing, this event showed the TRUE fault of China, the Original Sin, which is the almost unlimited, unchecked power of CPC. Granted, they did a right thing to banish Fa Lun Gong, but it also showed that they can utterly destroy anyone or any group of people whose believes offend them. This is the original sin! The supreme and unchecked power!

This is a topic I will return to at a later time. Now that I am here for perspectives and truth, so I will temporarily move on to other topics.

1. Mao's achievements.

Contrary to your claims, Mao has made great contributions for China. Aside from leading CPC during the wars against Japan and Guo Min Tang Party (KMT), the series of post-war campaigns such as the Big Leap Forward campaign are not all bad, and some of them are actually cornerstones of completions of the industrialization process.

Let me ask you, how does a country accumulate wealth? How did Britain, France, Germany or United States finish their industrialization process? Looking back in history, the advent of capitalism, colonization and the subsequent industrialization went hand-in-hand. The advent of capitalism was a break through from the traditional agricultural production mechanism, thus triggered an industrialization process lasting for hundreds of years. A process that allowed the social transition from agricultural society to industrial society to take place, and a process that was funded and supported by hundreds of years of colonization history in blood and looting. Colonization has been vital in western society's success in that it provided an continuous stream of monetary wealth and human capital.

Perhaps you do not know that in Qing Dynasty, the last Dynasty of China, China had one third of world's wealth as well as one third of world's population. Imagine where your western society would be today if it had not robbed so much of China's wealth. Somewhere you can find the statistics to tell you the proportion of wealth an average european owns today that is directly liberated from and indebt to China, I am sure you will be amazed by the figure.

I say this not to despise or find grounds for blaming the western countries. This knowledge simply allows you to properly imagine China, fresh out of war, bankrupt and crippled in technologies, was in a very poor state to feed its people and produce the stuff it needs for growth and protection. We had very little national wealth in 1949 when CPC officially established control. Years of wars had depleted what little food reserves we had. Thus the question, how does one country accumulate wealth? How does one country develope its industries from nothing?

The CPC, or Mao, used a method arguably much more human than the hundreds of years of bloody colonization and looting, they squeezed wealth out of their subjects, ie, the Chinese people at large. It was the only rational method available at the time. China had nowhere to colonize at the time, the world was in a very complicated state with struggling powers that will counter the eastern side at every turn. CPC took the only reasonable path by executing the series of post-war campaigns. Some of them over-worked its people, and some of them are driven by blind optimisim, however, the early part of the CPC campaigns did achieve its goals. China was able to develope the much needed heavy industry as well as laying the industrial foundations for the economical and political reform that took place later on after 1979.

I am not saying they didn't make mistakes, but if a typical westerner simply dismiss the great good CPC and Mao has done for China, then it is very foolish and ignorant of him. Their mistakes had cost tens of millions of people their lives, some of these mistakes might have been prevented, then again, remeber to look at how they started and where the Chinese people are today. So the next time you are in a hurry to quote the history of modern China as humanitarian crisis, it will do well to acknowledge what your forefathers did to allow you the good livings and educations that had given context to your values and integrity. You have those virtues intact precisely because the necessary evil had already been accomplished. Your social benefits and democracy had all been built on the suffering and death of so many millions of people before you, then how can you ignore this fact and accuse China for being brutal? Consider how many the CPC made to suffer so that we can be at where we are today, in comparison to the western countries, I think CPC did a decent job.

Then again, CPC is not without flaws. All that you have said is true, and change is imminent. You just need to know that CPC is not much worse than your own countries, and frankly, CPC is capable of changing and be better than itself. Whether it ever will change and be better is another question, though, because it solely depends on overcoming the one Sin that could make or break China. That one Sin is the unchecked power that is the nature of a centralized government. More and more of the Chinese people are beginning to realize this today, and particularly among the elite level.

2. Tibet and Xin Jiang

It is very funny how the western makes such a big fuss out of these two issues. I bet no one listened to the native americans when the white men killed their men and brutalized their children and women. I will be curious when a portion of the United States want to declare independence, how will the US react to that? Outrage? Shock? or perhaps understanding like your western values would preach? Because if it is the latest case, the native americans are really missing the opportunity of life time by not asking for an independent country as well compensations for their sufferings.

Why do you suppose Hawaii a part of the United States? Don't they deserve to be a nation of their own? How can US have claims over islands hundreds of miles away from its continent? I am just curious how do you define whether a piece of land to be part of a country or not? How do you validify your claims? Is America really the country for the Americans?

You have argued that Taiwan is not part of China because you proposed to fuck the history and that right now is what matters, then you will do well to remember, RIGHT NOW, Tibet and Xin Jiang are parts of China, and RIGHT NOW, China has legitmate claims over both of these places. I don't think any free-thinking western leaders would have done differently if placed in the same shoes as CPC.

Anyways, the points are not really about debating whether China owns Tibet and Xin Jiang. For every argument you present, I could contradict you with another kind of logic. If you question Tibet and Xin Jiang, then you will have to leave opennings for questioning a lot of the western nations. The point is not about technicalities that maybe used to define or determine. I will get to the point soon, but first let's settle on the point that ANY NATION, when confronted with questions regarding its boundary integrity, would excersize extreme prudence and possibly go to extreme length to avoid being compromised. I think we can both agree on that, correct?

Now with that out of the way, I want to take a closer look at the motivations behind western emphasize on human rights regarding Tibet and Xin Jiang. That is, other than the rosy dory version told in the media. It has become a tradition that western countries make interventions, if convenient, in matters they thought ought to be handled differently. Sometimes these interventions are covert, while sometimes not. You need not me to give a list of examples.

Now this is my speculation. I am really glad that China has an adequate enough military presence that the western countries would not execute a blatant military operation to overthrow the Chinese control. The world history has taught me that had China been any weaker, this possibility might not be entirely out of question. I suppose the next reasonable thing for the western countries would be to breed the next generation of "freedom fighters" to help fight the cause for Tibet and Xin Jiang's liberations. Help the Tibetants to win their own cause, yeh!

After all, this is what US did to create the Taliban regime to oppose the Russian oppressors. This is how they have created the Saddam regime to fight Iran. They want to fight tyranny, and one way or another, they will get things done. Oh, I am really glad China is not any weaker than it is right now, because if that had been the case, we would probablly be seeing a lot of unrest in both Xin Jiang and Tibet today.

I really don't think the western media cares about what China thinks, because by outright stating Tibet and Xin Jiang are not part of China, they have violated a fundamental respect that is needed to resolve differences. This fundamental respect is what makes possible to acknowledge China's legitmate need to handle its integrity problems with prudence.

So let me put this simply,
1. Tibet and Xin Jiang problems critically concern China's boundary integrity
2. Like any other country, China is entitled to exercize extreme caution and prudence when handling such a problem
3. Like any other country, force may be employed to avoid being compromised

So first, the westerners disrespect China's valid need for caution by attacking its reluctancy, then whine about China not acknowledging the western solution that Tibet and Xin Jiang should be free. Who says we should listen to you just because you believe you are right? The westerners really ought to switch place and consider their options if placed in China's shoes. Would you have handled things more elegantly? By handing out your country's integrity so easily? It is really funny that while no countries on earth would have allowed such a thing happen to them, the western free world seems to be so quick to launch a smear campaign against China. Who is the hypocrite now?

This issue cannot be resolved easily and will not be resolved by separating Tibet and Xin Jiang from China. What should really matter is about identifying and creating a solution that will benefit and satisfy most of the needs, such as cultural preservation, social benefits, protecting China's integrity, etc.

As I see it, you westerners really don't care about Tibet or Xin Jiang. If you really do, you would have known the original Lamar practice was one cruel and inhuman regime that often employ human sacrifices as discipline methods, which are consistent with its religious teachings. How the fuck can you propose to let these people have their own way? Anyways, what really alarms me is in fact the western humanitarian campaign itself. It is as if the "free world" staging the moral proof necessary for supporting future covert military actions. It is a pity that often fervent believers of these western propagations do not see them as pawns of a greater game.

Finally, let me end this lengthy essay with a warning, "A country that is afraid to let its people know the truth, is a country afraid of its people." I think it was by JF Kennedy. Great wisdom, and a notion China should do well to keep in mind in its future endeavors.

Anonymous said...

You truly have a gift for saying a lot without saying anything.

Leo said...

I am not sure what that means...

Leo said...

Anyways, the point I am really trying to make is, if you want to critisize China, you might as well get your facts straight and do a good job. By that I mean to critisize the things that are truely wrong, not the things that the western values perceive to be wrong.

Please show some genuine wisdom

Anonymous said...

LEO,

NO NEED TO PUT ON SUCH LONG ESSAY FOR THE SIMPLE HEAD, SUCH AS chinabounder.

1. they will not bother to read;
2. China is such a complex issue for them to understand;
3. you should not take people like chinabounder too seriously;
4. chinabounder is here to help ordinary Chinese to learn the dark side of western people; the more of them the better;
5. above all, no matter what the west say and do, China is progressing on every directions, that's for sure. If China stops making progress then it is a BIG problem.

Leo said...

well, someone might read. You never know. It would do no good to simply dismiss the western opinions by saying, this is too complex for a non-chinese to understand, so I will not bother explaining to you.

I believe that a majority of the viewers here actually care about learning the complicated truth rather than taking brief pleasures in China-bashing. This is what I hope for, anyways.

Durandal said...

You seem to have proficiency in English, but to be effective in rhetoric you need to be concise. I will not respond to you with your excessive verbosity.

You have just bought the party line of blood libel against Falun Gong. In truth, that cult is less dangerous than Communism.

Similarly you have accepted the blood libel against Tibetan Buddhists.

"Boundary integrity" sounds like another way to say lebensraum.

You claim that mass murder was the only way to industrialize China, yet Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan all accomplished the same before China without communism.

The United States would be a better country if it had allowed the secession of the Southern States (and any future secessions). The individual is greater than the state.

In the modern era, there is no justification for sanctioning a despotic government. To join civilization, China must adopt true political liberalism, rather than its cargo-cult imitation of our capitalism.

Leo said...

Durandal,

First of all, english is not my native language, so I am still learning to be more effective. In the mean time, I will keep trying to express my views.

It seems we have a lot of mis-matching information. It is all very understandable.

Lets start with Fa Lun Gong. What is the point of saying Falun Gong being less dangerous than Communism?

I was explaining the reasons why Fa Lun Gong was a danger to social stability, and why I agree swift measures were necessary in handling them. By explaining the intricacy of the matter, I hope that readers would understand human rights could not be applied so easily. It is not as simple as telling black and white, because when you are concerned with individual's rights, you also have to evaluate their dangers to the society, CREDIBLE dangers that had already been demonstrated in Fa Lun Gong's operations and teachings.

Therefore, CPC has done what any sensible government would have done. This is the logical course I take.

What does it have to do with Communism being more dangerous than Fa Lun Gong?

I think you are missing my points.




Next topic, I have not accepted the blood libel against Tibetan Buddhists.

My statements on Tibet and Xin Jiang issues are not about if my country handled them correctly, the statements are:

1. Same as every other country, China has a legitmate reason to be reluctant in relation to boundary integrity issues

2. Just because the western media believes Tibet is its own country does not automatically equal the Chinese government shares the same view. It ALSO DOES NOT EQUAL that Tibet is in fact its own country. The western point of view is not right by default.

3. Western propaganda's disrespect of China's legitmate need for caution and reservation in resolving Tibet and Xin Jiang issues is entirely hypocriptical.

Imagining the native americans claim independence over any territory in US, or Puerto Rico to cede from US rules, or any of its territories acquired after WWII to cede from US rules.

China is no different from what your own country would have done.

4. Finally, I questioned the motivations of western propaganda, as being not merely concerns for humanitarian issues, but a subtle effort for undermining Chinese influences.

As you can see, I by no way made statements accepting blood libel against Tibetan Buddhists.




Next item. Although I did not use the word mass murder, but I guess I really cannot fault you for putting these words in my mouth.

If you insist in putting it this way, then I guess my point was stating that the CPC "mass muder" is infinitely more human than the "mass murders" committed by western capitalism development.

Was it the only way to achieve industrial development? You quoted Japan, South Korea and Taiwan, as if they somehow prove me wrong.

They each had unique advantages.

For example, KMT party, when defeated and was retreating to Taiwan, had taken with them most of the wealth reserves that China had at the time, in the forms of hard currency, such as gold or US dollars. During the years of development after the WWII, it received continuous financial support from US. It is simple history. If you can read traditional Chinese, go to this Taiwanese website:

http://www.mcu.edu.tw/department/genedu/2echelon/92report/a03/0807_01.htm

In the case of Japan, Japan has already finished industrialization process by the time of World War I. It already had solid economic and industrial foundations after the WWII ended. There were also various factors that helped Japan maintain a stable social order which in turn stimulated economic growth. It is such a wide topic, you have to be an expert on Japan to see the whole truth. Do a research on Japan's GDP before 1931, 1944 and after 1945. You can see the wars' positive effects still lingered on Japan even after its apparent defeat.

I am not an expert, so I cannot extensively educate you on this topic, but I know the general ideas, so you may do your own research if you want a more accurate conclusion.

Finally, South Korea, I will admit I am ignorant in this area. And if you truely want to prove me wrong, you could explore this area, and you might come up with some valid facts (and not mere speculations you seemed to assume in your original post) that can prove my points wrong. I urge you to do more research.

Anyways, until you come up with adequate enough proof, I remain unconvinced by your wishful speculations.

All in all, none of your points have had much to do with what points I was trying to make. In one instance, you even assumed me to "bought the party line of blood libel against Falun Gong."

I did not "buy" any party line, because I myself am very well-versed in relation to Fa Lun Gong matters. I have extensive knowledge in Qi Gong, and in contact with various people that have (mostly) indirect involvements during the events of Fa Lun Gong in 1998. I didn't "buy" anything because I make my own minds.

I do think it is you that automatically assumed me being under the influence of CPC propaganda, because you probablly don't believe Fa Lun Gong was such a harmful and crazy group. Now I just told you two truth about Fa Lun Gong:

1. Their teachings are hazardous
2. They tried to make the prime minister step down

The first one is easier to verify, while the second one may not be possible for everyone to verfiy.

Anyways, you can choose to ignore them, or you can re-evaluate your opinions in light of the new knowledge.

But whatever you choose to do, it has nothing to do with ME buying "the party line". So please REALLY read my post, and next time you try to make a reply, please stick to the points.

P.S. If there is something you do not know, at least make an educated guess.

Durandal said...

Do you not consider false accusations of human sacrifice blood libel? Falun gong is wacky, but not any more wacky or dangerous than any of the other erroneous traditional Chinese beliefs like TCM and yin and yang. You need to get some perspective if you consider it dangerous that its leaders campaigned against party leaders for political office.

You continue to make excuses why Japan, Korea, and Taiwan all started from about nearly same level of abject poverty in the 1950s and beat you to the top. If you hadn't figured it out yet, establishing rule of law recognizing private ownership is the way to attract foreign investment and become rich.

The native Americans were barbarians living by the ethical code of tribalism-- constant war against non-kin. They did not settle land or develop it for agriculture. When Europeans began to farm the empty land, the nomadic bands raided their settlements. The only response to a mad dog is to put it down. There is no valid comparison between China and America in this respect.

And I will stop "playing music to a cow."

Anonymous said...

"When Europeans began to farm the empty land, the nomadic bands raided their settlements. The only response to a mad dog is to put it down."

OH MY GOD.

durandal,

IF I WENT INTO YOUR SITTING ROOM UN-INVITED, WHAT WILL YOU DO?

WILL YOU INVITED ME FOR A DINNER? OF COURSE NOT. YOU WILL KICK ME OUT OF YOUR HOUSE IN NO TIME.

WHEN EUROPEAN SETTLERS STARTED AGRICULTURAL IN AMERICA, THEY CONFISCATED THE LAND WHICH BELONGED TO THE NATIVE INDIANS. OF COURSE THE NATIVES HAD TO FIGHT BACK AND RAIDED FARMLAND.

THIS IS WHY "FREE TIBET" SUPPORTED BY THE WEST HAS NO HOPE AT ALL. WHAT IS THE HOPE TO SUPPORT AN OLD THEOCRATIC DICTATOR (DALAI LAMA) TURNED INTO A PUBLICITY CHARM.

Durandal said...

You can't steal from someone who has no claim to property. The noble savage is a lie. The tribes lived in constant warfare with each other. By their ethical system and ours, the Europeans acted justly.

Leo said...

Durandal:

I am glad you replied. If it was Chinabounder who made the reply, I am sure he would have put up more of a fight. Fervent he may be in his hardcore believes, he actually shows logic and diligence in his arguments, which would require me to be much more cautious when replying to him as to not leave too many opennings. I would have to double check my facts and show good points, a task that would have taken efforts.

With you, however, I would say if anyone still cares enough to read this far, he would have seen that you just proved my points and made a fool out of yourself.




Biased Belief:

If you would forget the hollywood garbage of what a holy man Dalai Lama is, and actually do some serious research. You will discover various western scholars' research on the subject of Tibet society and its history.

National Geographic Channel is a good place to start with. Your local university libraries usually contain books and information that are not always a good-sell to the public, but they are serious research stuff. They are not seen on the news paper or your television coverage, but they are there. You just have to dig them out to get some proper perspectives.

If you care about speaking as truthfully as possible and making good points, you really should be more knowledgeable about the subject. Tibet was a society that employed slavery and torture like it was a day to day life.

Keep in mind I have never once claimed that the CPC seized Tibet and ruled it for its own good (although this is what I believe, I shall not raise this point just yet), I am just simply stating that your claim of me making false accusations is very ignorant. I suspect that you knew very little of Tibet's history beyond the hollywood garbage that has been fed to you. Thus, your biased belief.




Ignorance

First you make comparison of Falun Gong and Communism. When I explained why my original post had no relevance whatsoever with such a comparison, you make new comparison between Falun Gong and "other erroneous traditional Chinese belifs like TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine?) and yin and yang."

The yin yang belief system is basically how ancient Chinese viewed the fundamental principles of our universe. It was an ancient philosophy that attempted to describe how our universe functioned, and how the fundamental elements that are the fabrics of our world interact and evolve. It was by no means erroneous. Although by today’s standards, it is crude and lacks sophisticated scientific elegence, that is because this belief system has not properly evolved in accordance with the advance of modern science for the last two thousand years.

You have to keep in mind that men of thousands years ago came up with this philosophy. Their tools and method of observing world physics were quite limited. They could observe patterns and rules by which our universe comply to, but their observation could only be crude and limited. We humans have evolved and advanced so much in terms of science, our understandings of the physics of the world has never been so fine and accurate (relatively speaking) before. The yin yang system could really use some updates by making reflections on modern science, however, this takes someone or a collective group with the deep understandings of both the traditional Chinese philosophy and many areas of modern science to achieve.

Anyways, the yin yang system was what gave birth to another “erroneous” Chinese practice, the Traditional Chinese Medicine. I could tell you the miracles it has done by some practitioners that still retained the true knowledge of Traditional Chinese Medcine, but it is pointless, because you have already made up your mind that TCM is bollock, and frankly, I am a Chinese that makes me lacking credibility in your eyes.

However, I could explain the reasons why TCM has been so much of a mal-practice in the world’s opinion. It has received huge critisism from both domestic China as well as western world, so it is not just the western medicine society that’s having second thoughts. The reasons though can be summarized in two parts,

a) TCM requires intricate knowledge of how human bodies function. The traditional yin yang belief was the theory that form the principles of TCM practice, thus giving guidence and pointers to diagnose human body’s disorders. However, as it was crude, it requires the doctors with enormous experiences to understand the shortcomings of yin yang system, where it can be applied and where it needs alterations or modifications. It was through western medicine’s great advancement, that these knowledges could become available to the TCM doctors, however, to discern right and wrong in the yin yang system requires, like I said, enormous experiences and learnings. It takes a man of a genius mind to accomplish such learning through TCM practice. That is not to say that he will also need to study western medicine, as well as become familiar with thousands of herbs and their attributes. The cases where you find TCM to be a failure are almost always performed by someone with half the understanding. They don’t even understand how TCM works themselves, because they only know what the book says (book with errors), then how can they pass the strict scrutiny of western medicine?

b) Sometimes, the herbs are less potent than what they were before. Nowadays, herbs are collected from farms that use excessive fertilizer and other chemical substances. They were, traditionally speaking, gathered in the wild where their undisturbed ecological environment made them much healthier and potent. The resulting effect makes the overall application slower to cure and with less effect. However, these only makes a small proportion of the failure instances. The major reason is still the lack of proficiency on the docter’s side. In the right hands, people with true knowledge, TCM performs miracles.

Anyways, the fact that you know next to nothing about the traditional Chinese philosophies and in combination to your quick dismissal showed me, and probablly to a lot of westerns who really do the thinkings, as ignorance. You know nothing of what you are speaking, and you draw conclusions based on wishful thinking, a recurring habit you really ought to change.




Now back to my make-up excuses in relation to how Taiwan, Korea and Japan beat China to the top from the same abject poverty. It again, showed me that you are ignorant of what you are speaking. At least you would know the term “Cold War”. During which period, Chna belonged to the Communism east countries and received all sorts of blockades and punishments. This is the picture:

1. China had no national wealth at the time of the end of the WWII, and a large population to feed
2. Communism ideas were a noble cause that helped people through the war, and were what gave people strength and hope. Therefore, it was not likely to be dismissed overnight. Converting to capitalism and establishing private ownership would have roused Soviet’s wrath, and possibly risk civil war in China
3. International market closed off to China, unlike Japan, Taiwan or Korea. Ocean trade virtually none-existence.
4. Desperate need for heavy industry, as this was what made weapons and offered much needed protection in anticipation of hostile actions of “western enemies”.
5. CHINA HAD NO NATIONAL WEALTH

Now I hope you have your proper perspectives. You really ought to do some researchs to truly understand what it was like to be in the 1950s to early 80s. Claiming China should have established private ownership to attract foreign investment is nothing but wishful thinking. It is all very reason in modern days, but we are talking about 1950s here, cannot you be more educated?




Double Standard

I really love the way you argued about the native americans. Now I have two different approaches to rebute you. Should I elaborate? I will be concise

1. Properly define entitlement

By your logic, the whitemen, european comers were simply intending to develop the land, and grew agriculture, and the native americans were savage people that lived by tribalism and constantly warred against non-kins and disturbed the new comers’ progress.

What makes you think the natives americans shouldn’t have raided your settlements? Because to the native americans, the America WAS their home. It WAS their land. Just because they were tribalism, and you were agricultural, that makes you more entitled to the land of America?

You disturbed their lives! They sent you turkeys to help you through the winters and cold for God’s sake, but you just had to take advantage of their naïve way of life. Let me ask you, who was in the land of America first? What makes you think it wasn’t the new comers that disturbed the native americans? Please don’t make me laugh by telling me the white men were all respectful and kind-natured gentlemen. I am not familiar with the history of early American settlement, but I know people and their ways. I know what people would do for greed in a place where there is no law to abide to. You take what you can, and those native lives don’t worth shit.

Don’t try to call it self defense.

Just for added benefits, the Tibet society was no more advanced than the native americans, where the Tibetan still raised animals instead of crops. They didn’t develop much of agriculture either, although the influence of Han (the majority ethnic of China) had spread far enough that some agriculture was developed. There were intimate historical ties between Tibet and central China that went hundreds of years far back. All things considered, I think they were definitely unqualified to pass as modern man, since they didn’t develop agricultures and worshipped devils that made the Lama masters and regular Tibetans slaves, and oh yeah, they did kill innocent Han people too, nice sweet Han people who just wanted to settle in Tibet and develop Agricultures.

Since the Chinese brought development to the land, I think we definitely were entitled to Tibet.

2. Properly define “human” rights

Imagine if the native Americans had developed agricultural skills by the time of airrval of the european comers, do you think it would have turned out differently? Consider all that was going on in the world at the time, with all the colonizations and conquering for glories and richness, I highly doubt it. Tribalism is just a pathetic excuse.

Just because YOU wanted the land to be developed, does not equal to the native americans agreeing with you. Sure, I agree that on the scale of hundreds of years, those past bloody sins have brought progress and look at where USA is today, the almighty force of righteousness standing tall and proud. However, to the native americans, at the time, there wasn’t slight bit of justifications to it.

The differences between the european newer comers and the native americans were that the new comers were more advanced than the natives in many ways, and the new comers had different plans about what to do with the land in mind from the natives. There wasn’t slight bit of justifications that gave the new comers any entitlement to the land, and lets not forget the natives americans were there first.

Now because the new comers wanted to do something different with the land, and the native americans do not agree and were perceived as mad dogs to be gunned down, where were your human rights then? Oh yeah, I forgot, these mad dogs could barely be seen as humans.

So let me get this straight with you, don’t you ever talk to me about human rights then, because your human rights is based on your value judgements of who can and who cannot be treated as humans. During the time of America’s explorations, these native americans were simply not qualified as human beings but hindrance to progress.

Now we have better understandings of the limitations of “human rights”, of where it can or cannot be applied to, lets visit an old line you once concluded:

“In the modern era, there is no justification for sanctioning a despotic government. To join civilization, China must adopt true political liberalism, rather than its cargo-cult imitation of our capitalism.”

You forgot your civilization has already committed the necessary evil so that it can be the civilization it is today. In relation to “despotic government”, your civilization has already been there, done that, and is well past the need for being despotic, despotic act carried out behind the mask of democracy and righteousness, and in the name of progress. Now that your civilized modern world is already so far ahead, you accuse a third world developing country for being brutal, brutal acts as I reasoned to be far more human than the crimes your civilizations once committed. Try to count your skeletons, buddy, for therein lies the limitations to human rights and democracy.

To draw conclusions, I do not speak from a place of resentment against the western media’s accusations. Sins committed by China, no matter how great the progress is, are still sins and require all of us to not turn a blind eye to it. I just believe that we could all do a better job if all facets of truth are brought to bare and properly diagnosed. It will do no good by simply looking at China and accuse its current crimes and flaws, an act though necessary, is limiting and provide no further benefits other than merely expressing the accuser’s good nature and good standing with human moral values. It has no further reflections of truth, because it does not take considerations of the greater patterns of human history.

It does, in a very limiting way, serve the betterment of mankind, but it does a sloppy job, for it has little wisdom.

Durandal said...

The PRC condemns Tibet for slavery and torture? Do the Chinese have a word for chutzpah? Compared to a liberal republic, I don't doubt that the Tibetan monarchy was barbaric. Monarchy at least abides by some code of honor, while communism rules only by fear. As to which I would rather live, I choose the one with the lower body count.

TCM is nothing more than sympathetic magic. If it had any merit, Western medicine would have adopted its practices.

China closed itself off from the rest of the world. Capitalism encourages foreign trade, whereas communism only seems to encourage misery.

I wouldn't expect a communist to understand the concept of property. A man earns property by adding value to what he finds in nature. A native living as an animal, squatting on some land, does not own it by virtue of his birth there.

Leo said...

Funny how you kept on repeating the same biased opinion from your limited knowledges regarding Tibet.

Do you even know what a serf is? If you do not, I recommand, like I originally pointed out, go read about it. The cruelty of the original Tibet Lama rule was anything but "lower body count". Talk about rules by fear! If you want to live in old Tibet rather than present China, then God help you.

By the way, is that the country you see of China now? A country crippled by fear?

Like I said, please check your facts, read about solid researches and see some documented PICTURES. If you have your facts wrong, how can you have the proper perspectives??

Your apparent discrimination toward TCM is also completely groundless. You are not of medical profession, and after my extensive education for your benefits regarding why TCM has been a failing experience for the western medical community, you produce no better counter arguement other than, once again, outright claiming western medicine took no notice of it.

Are you in the front edge of medical research? Are you associated with large number of western medical experts that can produce facts to back your claim that "western medicine" is not taking notice of TCM?

JESUS, both accounts just showed how biased and ignorance you are. And remember when Bruno said the sun was the center of the universe, not the earth, the Church burnt him for it.

Keep in mind how many forms of illness and disease that your western medicine has no cures of. You look up to it like it is a bible for you. "If the western medicine does not recognize so and so, then it is not science!" This is the exact kind of blind-faith mindset similar to the dark age Churchs.

I, on the other hand, know TCM practioners who are working with western medical institution for researches. Fool.

Finally, twisting the arguements again, huh? I see how your arguements work here. First you catagorize me as "communist", then you make subtle hints implying a communist wouldn't understand your concept of property. Now of course, a communist being all wrong and shit would never produce any good opinion regarding concept of private ownership, therefore, your argument becomes automatically correct.

Once again, it shows bias and deception. If you want to truely have a good debate, please go back and read some more on all topics involved here BEFORE you make a comment here.

Frankly, a native living as an animal is just YOUR WISHFUL THINKING. The native americans had their own language and cultulre. They rely on the land for herding animals and hunting, a life, though very different from the agricultural style the new comers possessed, is nevertheless a valid life entirely entitled of its own rights. You are telling me your western colonists had more rights to the land just because they are advanced? It justified the brutalizing and ethinical cleansing performed by the white men?

You imply the native americans to be living as animal, and I just told you they are not animals. Now you still yet to be able to produce a counter to the point that agricultural style had more rights to the land than the hunting and herding style of the natives. To claim so, you would have to have a thug mentality. "It is mine, because I am stronger."

So instead of arguing about it, why don't you just admit that your ancensters committed those crimes, and you are better off, materlistically speaking, because of it. You have the kind of life you have today because of those sin. Show some honesty please.

Durandal said...

I will not even bother to contest the libel your teachers taught you about Tibet. You are dropping the context of the PRC annexation of Tibet. Back then, your government was far more despotic than Tibet. The CPC no longer needs to rely fully on fear because they created a very efficient brainwashing program. Fear is only needed to keep in line those too rational to accept what they have been taught.

Funny enough, I am a medical researcher. The basis of TCM is yin-yang quackery, a theoretical basis which is completely untestable and mystical. TCM has nothing to offer to the field of modern medicine based on science, other than a few drugs that, by sheer coincidence, actually do something.

Ethically, the natives were animals. They were controlled by their environment, while man controls nature. Language and "culture" do not entitle an animal to be treated as a man. Their ethical system was tribalism, in essence they were living in accordance to their animal instincts. The natives for the most part had no claim to the territory the Europeans settled. They had no permanent settlements and made no improvements on the territory. When Europeans developed vacant territory, they earned the right to use the land. The natives, living by the territorial law of animals, attacked the rightful of the land, the settlers.

Leo said...

Durandal, I urge you to really look at some of the places where I pointed out for your furthur education on topics regarding Tibet.

You simply assumed that what I told you was worthless because I am being taught by my teachers, who are surely as propaganda oriented as my CPC government is.

How conveniant.

Here, now that you are too stubborn to acknowledge my initial advice for acquiring credible facts, I had to dig some of them out myself:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7355

By Dr. Michael Parenti, notice that his resources include over 60 credible sources, such as San Francisco Chronicles, LA Times, and works and interviews produced by various western scholars.

PRC annexation of Tibet is once again just YOUR wishful thinking, ideas given to you by being fed to the western propaganda/pro-military campaign bullshits.

If you continue along the lines of "The CPC no longer needs to rely fully on fear because they created a very efficient brainwashing program. Fear is only needed to keep in line those too rational to accept what they have been taught." after reading the materials I presented, then I truely find it worthless of my time to debate with you.


So, lets see if you will "bother to contest the libels" I bought. Humor me, man.










Funny enough, being a medical researcher you are, I would think you would have more devotions to discovering and explorations of frontier ideas. Yet you so easily dismiss TCM's effects as being sheer coincidence.

Have you ever given these sheer coincidences benefits of the doubt? Nope, seeing that how readily you dismissed my VALID points concerning Tibet just because YOU THINK I am under CPC propaganda influence, and not bothering at all to base your objections on facts, I think I can confidently say that you are once again directed by your personal bias and lack of information regarding TCM.

Shit, you hardly cared about facts, and you just made them up along the way, or take for granted of what you know of.

How many of world's great scientific advancement are resulted from digging deeply into coincidences and following the leads of accidental discoveries?

X-ray
Penicillin
Artifil Sweeteners
Microwave oven
Brandy

Just to name a few.

You claim to be a medical researcher, and are so sure of your scientific correctness because of such an association, yet I see none of the qualities associated with science. All I see is a religious vigor that places so much faith in your western medical field being the ONLY acceptable science.

When you are confronted by something that differs from your upbringing education, you denies its credibility and rejects it.

I HAVE EXPLAINED TO YOU WHY TCM OFTEN TIMES FAIL! It has to do with the knowledge of the practitioners as well as adjustments to its foundation theories.

Still you come back to your earlier and ONLY argument being that TCM does not work, thus it is not science. There are A LOT you do not know of in relation to TCM. I have seen the miracles, and I KNOW TCM practitioners who work with western medical institutions for research AND teaching purposes.

Your mentality is so set in your faith of known science that you reject ideas different from your scientific education. I said this once, and I will say this again, there are MANY FORMS OF ILLNESS where your western medicines have no cures of, so it is certainly NOT an end-all, be-all thing, and there are a lot of things you do not know about TCM.









Finally, the native of americans. Yeah, I bet the natives, living by the territorial law of animals, attacked the rightful of the land, the settlers, with turkeys as ammunitions. :)

They are certainly NOT animals. Jesus, they are PEOPLE for christ sake, how twisted can you be?

Now that I see that our differences are so great, I shall play a game with you. If you would agree and if Chinabounder still cares enough to read all of our little exchanges, I shall trust him to settle this dispute between us.

Like I said, though I think of his ideas hardcores, I do think he is as fair as he can be, so I will place my faith in his judgement. If Chinabounder says the natives were animals, then animals they are, and we will leave it like that.

If CB says otherwise, then you likewise drop your arguments and admit the illness in your presumptions.

How about that? Durandal, do you agree?

:)

Durandal said...

The reason I continue to debate with you is that all Chinese nationalists believe the same thing, so I am not debating just one person.

Yes, feudalism sucks, but communism is a more brutal still form of government. The link accuses Tibet of conscription into monkhood, sexual mistreatment, slavery, taxation, but how is that any different from communist China? All in all, Buddhist theocracy led to fewer deaths than Maoist theocracy.

I am a scientist not a mystic. My mind is only open to theories that are testable. There is no such thing as Western or Eastern science; there is just science and non-science. Cultural relativism does not reflect reality. Many inventions were serendipitous, but only when the theoretical bases for them were worked out using science did they become successful. There are many unanswered questions in science, but to think they will be answered outside of reason is self-delusion.

Native Americans did not need gunpowder to depredate settlers. As people devoted to mindless warfare, they were pretty effective with their primitive stone age weapons. Do you no longer challenge the basis of the European claims of property? I don't particularly care what CB thinks of the natives. (Though he is far too moderate to agree with me.) As hard as this may be to understand to a relativist, reality is not changed by how many people think something is true.

Leo said...

Dude, your lack of adequate reasoning ability is annoying.

You made up facts again, it is getting to be a hilarious habit for you.

First I tell you Tibet government is brutal, you tell me I am under the influence of CPC. Where are your PROOF?

Then I tell you my facts are from western researches, you ONCE AGAIN make up facts that CPC is more brutal than Tibet regime.

WHERE IS THE PROOF?

For fuck's sake, did you consult ANY facts before you speak? CPC provided water, infrastructure, child health care, electricity, distributed land to farmers who previously owned NOTHING, and put an end to the slavery and all sorts of inhuman practices that was the old Tibet.

How is old Tibet any different from cummunist China? Fucking retard question.

Where in old Tibet, sexual abuse was SYSTEMETIC, rights entitled to a selective few to carry out, it was a daily reality for the Tibetans. In modern CPC's time, it is a CRIME. Now was I reasonable to call your question retarded?






As for TCM, TCM HAS BEEN ABLE TO produce results. The theory is something you are NOT familiar with. How is that any different from any serendipitous discoveries?

You find something that works, and it leads to unknown area of science where you DID NOT KNOW existed. Is that outside of reason? You are being self-delusional to think science has to work the way you deem apropriate.

TCM works, and there are scientific explainations when it fails to work. It has nothing to do with mystism. You are a scientist with a religious assurance in your own correctness. Despite what you believe, TCM is still making progress in medicine, and it will not change just because you dismissed it.







I stopped to argue the basis of "your" definition of property because you defined native americans as animals. Fool. Animals don't own properties, don't you think?

Now this is an old argument I provided, to which you made no answer to. Had the natives being more advanced, do you think it would have turned out more differently? Seeing all the colonizations that went on all around the world at the time.

Would the white men have reasoned with them? If the natives refused, would the white men had allowed it? Seeing how the colonists knocked open other nations' doors around the world with cannons and drugs, I wouldn't hold much faith.

It is simple as that, they took what they wanted because they can.

Oh yeah, when I said the natives came with turkeys as their ammunitions, I really meant that they were helping these settlers in the first place. Do you know thanks-giving?? The settlers turned on their saviors once they had a more secure footing. Talk about animals.

Leo said...

Oh yeah, a line for you.

As hard as this may be to understand to a relativist, reality is not changed by how many people think something is false.

TCM is still being researched world-wide, despite your dismissal. Acupunctures, alternative medicines, to name a few. That is reality. Hard to accept?

Durandal said...

Perhaps you might point out specific parts of my arguments that are flawed, then. I doubt a Chinese would recognize logical arguments anyway; rationality apparently is a bourgeois prejudice not taught in your universities. Then again, if philosophy were taught in Chinese universities, the CPC would not be in power, and we probably wouldn't even be having this debate.

To this day, human sacrifice for organs is commonplace in the Chinese regime. Sexual abuse, or be harvested for organs? I know which I would choose. Communism is an inhuman philosophy because it ignores man's nature as a rational animal that must think to live.

TCM has been able to achieve results? That sort of breakthrough would get anyone published in Nature! As it is, TCM articles only get published in low-impact journals in China. What's that, TCM won't stand up to the basic protocols of double-blind testing? The fancy instruments interfere with the flow of ying and yan? Make no more arbitrary claims on this matter.

It is not "my" definition of property, but a law of human nature. Property, at the fundamental level, is the product of human thought. Man must rely on his mind rather than instincts to live. To prosper, a man must have the freedom to think and keep the products of his mind. Civilized men recognize this truth and create societies to defend it. Thus, the basis for all of today's wealth and prosperity.

Civilized men have no conflict with tribes, nations, or any other group of civilized men. Trade unifies civilization, because it enriches all, while warfare benefits nobody.

Durandal said...

s/commonplace/systematic

Leo said...

What the fuck? Are you STILL talking?









First of all, I should use a stick to beat reasons into your head. Have I NOT pointed out your flaws?

I have repeatedly pointed out your errors, and you repeatedly come back to me with the same lines.

First I tell you Tibet government is brutal, you tell me I am under the influence of CPC. Where are your PROOF?

Then I tell you my facts are from western researches, you ONCE AGAIN make up facts that CPC is more brutal than Tibet regime.



WHERE IS THE PROOF?



When I told you China provided Tibet basically everything that a modern civilization would need, and lifted its population from miserable life of poverty and horrenduous fate of mutilation and death. You tell me China is harvesting organs.

Fucking retard.

By the way, where is your proof on that?

Have I not repeatedly showed your flaws? Have I not?









Acupuncture and alternative medicine are both varied forms of TCM. They are being researched worldwide. That is a fact, so you need to get your head out of your ass.

Also, read this:

TCM articles in Nature 1
http://www.nature.com/ncprheum/journal/v3/n2/full/ncprheum0406.html

TCM articles in Nature 2
http://www.nature.com/labinvest/journal/v83/n1/full/3780594a.html

TCM articles in Nature 3
http://www.nature.com/bjp/journal/v149/n8/full/0706945a.html


What now? Surprise huh? Are you now going to discredite Nature, and name it second rate magazine?



Fool.









Finally, the native and property issues. Read this:


Native Americans and Agriculture


Native American Agriculture started about 7,000 years ago in the area of present day Illinois. The first crop the Native Americans grew was squash. This was the first of several crops the Native Americans learned to domesticate. Others included cotton, sunflower, pumpkins, watermelon, tobacco, goosefoot, and sump weed. The most important crop the Native Americans raised was maize. It was first started in Mesoamerica and spread north. About 2,000 years ago it reached eastern America. This crop was important to the Native Americans because it was part of their everyday diet, it could be stored in underground pits during the winter, and no part of it was wasted. The husk was made into art crafts and the cob was used as fuel for fires. By 800 A.D. the Native Americans had established 3 main crops which were beans, squash, and corn called the three sisters. Agriculture in the southwest started around 4,000 years ago when traders brought cultigens from Mexico. Due to the varying climate, some ingenuity had to be done for agriculture to be successful. The climate in the southwest ranged from cool, moist mountains regions, to dry, sandy soil in the desert. Some innovations of the time included irrigation to bring water into the dry regions, and the selection of seed based on their seed trait. In the southwest, they grew beans that were self-supported, much of the way they are grown today. In the east, however, they were planted right by corn in order for the vein to be able to climb the stalk.

The gender role of the Native Americans, when it came to agriculture, varied from region to region. In the southwest area, men would prepare the soil with hoes. The women were in charge of planting, weeding, and harvesting the crops. In most other regions, the women were in charge of doing everything including clearing the land. Clearing the land was an immense chore since the Native Americans rotated fields frequently. There have been stories about how Squanto showed pilgrims to put fish in fields and this would acts like a fertilizer, but this story is not true. They did plant beans next to corn; the beans would replace the nitrogen the corn took from the ground. They also had controlled fires to burn weeds and this would put nutrients back into the ground. If this did not work they would simply abandon the field and go find a new spot for their field.

Some of the tools the Native Americans used were the hoe, the maul, and the dibber. The hoe was the main tool used to till the land and prepare it for planting and then used for weeding. The first versions were made out of wood and stone. When the settlers brought iron, Native Americans switched to iron hoes and hatches. The dibber was essentially a digging stick, and was used to plant the seed. Once the plants were harvested they were prepared by the women for eating. The maul was used to grind the corn into mash ate that way or made into corn bread.









Are you going to come up with newer definition of property and values now?

It is time to shut up.

Leo said...

Oh yeah, by the way, judging from your repeated display of ignorance and your disrepect for facts and truth, I highly doubt you are of any great important position in the medical field.

You are certainly NOT in the research sector.

Just what do you practice anyways? Orthodontist?

How old are you? It doesn't seem you are very knowledgeable on just about anything that you speak of. Are you doing interns?

Durandal said...

Organ harvesting:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A49239-2001Jun26?language=printer

Funny, I find no mention of yin or yang in the Nature papers. Just because the herbs studied in modern medicine came from China doesn't make it TCM.

I never said that no native Americans farmed. The ones who did farm peacefully were definitely a minority, and were mostly wiped out by rival tribes.

I'm done here. You have run out of arguments and are hiding this by attacking me.

Leo said...

Yeah, I am glad you are done, because you are starting to act childish.






Your article only provides eyewitness accounts for organ harvesting of EXECUTED criminals. This is hardly news. Implications and facts had started occuring as early as 1990s.

I have no doubt it exists to a large existent within the prison system, and remains an lucrative and surreptitious practice. However, your consistent failures to realize your own prejudice keeps me amazed. Notice you said:

"human sacrifice for organs is still commonplace in the Chinese regime. Sexual abuse, or be harvested for organs?"







You are twisting facts again.

First you imply that human organ harvesting is a wide spread practice in China, which also involves "human sacrifice" in your own words.

Despite it is NOT true for it is a problem entirely limited to prison system, concerns only executed inmates, thus NOT a common place occurance, nor it is "human sacrifice".

How the fuck did you get that "human sacrifice" part in your head anyways???

You furthur accuse "chinese regime" for being responsible as the root of the practice, despite the overwhelming evidence that Chinese government CONDAMNS such a practice and it is NOT a government directed campaign.

It is ILLICIT in China.

Recent newly published regulations (May 2007) have taken the following three steps, among many others, in cracking down the underground practice:

1) Organ tradings banned entirely
2) Restricting organ transplant to foreigners, and making sure Chinese citizens have the priority in receiving donations, in order to cut down incentives
3) Install certification system for liscensing hospitals, with the aim to certify around 160 hospitals, as opposed to over 600 before the regulation. Note, US has around 100 hospitals nationwide for performing organ transplants

Some links are here:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-05/05/content_582847.htm

And here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/03/AR2007070300640.html




What you proved in your article was in fact ILLEGAL organ harvesting from death-sentenced prisoners.


It is DEFINITELY NOT "common place human sacrifice for organs."






Therein lies your failure to realize it being an illegal practice condamned by the ruling government. By purposefully concealing the fact "illegal", you twist it into implicating Chinese regime responsible for its organization.

However, if you adopt my reasoning, you will have to say "illegal organ harvests performed on executed prison inmates are still operating at large in China.", which is a lot less intimidating than your originally portraited picture of China being an evil regime that condoned such extreme actions such as organ harvesting.

This is a shameless blatant twist of concept, thus serves as no valid comparison to the old Tibet.






Tibet

Back to Tibet, whereas in old Tibet, anyone outside of the ruling body was subject to poverty, sexual abuse, torture, mutilation and amputation. Just by BEING a commoner, you are stripped of everything entitled to human. Any moment you can become a victim at the whim of your master. Rights? No such a thing.

That was the daily reality for an old Tibetan, and you tell me it is better for you? Be my guest, you are very sad if you insist so.

Lets see if you can twist any more realities into supporting your fancy ideas.








TCM

Funny, here,

http://www.nature.com/ncprheum/journal/v3/n2/full/ncprheum0406.html

TCM establishes a diagnosis of the individual rather than the disease, and uses a process called 'syndrome identification', whereby the practitioner makes a dynamic conceptualization of the individual's situation and comes up with a 'pathophysiologic status' (the type of disharmony) for the individual...

For your information, "type of disharmony" involves working out the balance of elements, the yin and yang. Of course its diagnostic mechanism is not elaborated in this article.

In addition, TCM prescription mechanism is all about knowing the property of the herbs, the property of the combination of herbs, and their mixed effects that balance the "disharmony" of the body, which also involves the yin yang theory.

I am sure you already know that, since you are such an expert on this matter and know the inside-out of TCM, right?




Do a "Traditional Chinese Medicine" search on Nature.com, and see the gigantic volumn of studies that show up, with the words "TRADITIONAL CHINESE MEDICINE" in them.

Fucking retard.

It is originated from China, with its theories and practice mechanisms intact. Even on paper, they said these are TCM STUDIES, how the fuck doesn't it make it TCM?










Natives

This is what you said:

"The native Americans were barbarians living by the ethical code of tribalism-- constant war against non-kin. They did not settle land or develop it for agriculture."


And this is also what you said:

"I never said that no native Americans farmed."

And this is also what you said:

"The ones who did farm peacefully were definitely a minority"

And this what documented history says:

"...The most important crop the Native Americans raised was maize. It was first started in Mesoamerica and spread north. About 2,000 years ago it reached eastern America. This crop was important to the Native Americans because it was part of their everyday diet, it could be stored in underground pits during the winter, and no part of it was wasted..."

Are you telling me a crop so important to natives that it was raised in two third of the north american lands was raised by minority?

The whole race of native americans raised crops, you fucking idiot. They were a agricultural dependent society. It makes an IMPORTANT part of their lives.







Yes, you are done here. Get out of here. I have piled facts upon facts that so far banished every one of your false logic, and fancy lies that you so often conjured spontaneously on the fly. You even forget your own words for God's sake.

I assure you I have plenty more arguments, and twice that amount of faults I could refer and exploit in your own posts.

It is about time you are done speaking.

By the way, if you care to answer this one last question for me, how old are you anyways?

Durandal said...

You have the nerve to call me childish when you are the one getting hostile and uncivil? My credentials are irrelevant, and you would not believe me anyway. Argue against the words, not the man.

In China, the average waiting time for a kidney donor is two orders of magnitude below that of any other country.
http://organharvestinvestigation.net/events/YALE0407.pdf
This suggests to me that the harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners for their organs is widespread. If the CPC did not approve of this activity, surely, with their stranglehold over the country, they could do something to stop it.

I love how you post a review article to support the validity of the system of TCM. And even that says that admits that the current research "has failed to address the fundamental concepts of TCM" i.e. the mystical quackery of qi. I never said that no Chinese herbs have any sort of physiological effect, but that is a red herring with respect to the system.

Only the Eastern and Southwest tribes grew crops. The rest were hunter-gatherers. For the most part, Americans were not the aggressors in the Indian wars. Conflicts began when the British recruited the Iroquois as allies against the colonists. When Americans settled the wilderness frontiers, the Cherokee attacked and were defeated. Later, the British recruited all of the remaining Eastern tribes under the chief Tecumseh to attack the US. Then there were the plains hunter-gatherer tribes who started conflicts against farmers settling on unused land. There were other conflicts, but for the most part, the natives were aggressive. Raids were the way of life in every native American culture I know of. Perhaps the colonists would have been kinder if the native did not practice scalping in these raids.

Leo said...

I am curious you still have the nerve to come back. On the other hand, I am starting to respect you for your unfailing efforts to come back with new arguments every time when your previous ones were proven false or twisting.






"This suggests to me that the harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners for their organs is widespread."

Everything you do is making assumptions. "This suggests me, that suggests me."

Look how I quoted your words to find faults and contradictions in them. You make up conveniant conclusions in whatever style that suits your arguement. That is why it was so easy for me to find flaws in your argument.

You once again makes this error in assuming FLG organ harvesting is a wide spread practice.

Here is a famous reply which has been floating around the net for sometime now:







"Have you looked into the veracity of the Kilgour report, or Falun Gong’s claim?

I have been following the Falun Gong story since March. I researched this matter after being given a flyer in Chinatown - and I have found many things wrong with this allegation.

In my humble opinion Falun Gong’s actions not only discredited their own cause, they also unnecessarily detracted from honest examination of China’s human rights record.

FLG’s nefarious political indictment muddles the rational discussion of issues such as China’s legal reform, and Chinese society’s moral and ethical standards on dignity and treatment of the condemned, or even death penalty crossing the cultural divide.

In that spirit, I would like to bring to your attention some contrarian facts surrounding Falun Gong’s recent media activity:

(all citations are at the end)

- Mr. Mike Stekeetee of The Australian had reported in April US congressional investigation finding the allegation a gross exaggeration. An US Congressional Executive Committee on China (CECC) brief subsquently commented on veracity of Falun Gong’s claim of genocide.

- US State Department investigated and found the allegation not credible.

- Harry Wu, directory of Laogai Research Foundation in DC, investigated the allegation and found the witness unreliable

- Melbourn Australia-based dissident Mr. Zhang HeTse of China Aid Online (?) has come forward and supported Harry Wu’s finding, while pointing out FLG’s phone call evidence is fake.

- The hospital Falun Gong accused in reality is a joint venture with a company affaliated with the Malaysian government. Malay officials have documented prior year visit, and the facility has been open to public for years.

- Mr. David Kilgour, author of a Canadian FLG report and a long time prosecutor, ignored obvious misrepresentation of evidence in his own report that used autopsy photo as evidence or organ harvesting.

Specifically, Kilgour report Appendix 12, Case 1, involving Mr. Wang Bin. Even according to Falun Gong’s own evidence, an autopsy was performed as part of Mr. Wang’s murder investigation held by local authority.

However, Kilgour report ignored the misrepresentation and recoreded it as evidence of organ removal, ommitting the fact organ removal by medical examiner during autopsy is routine.

In reality the photo proves the opposit is true.

- Mr. Kilgour can not divorce himself from the fact his report is sponsored by a Falun Gong group in Washington DC that is evidentely political.

In conclusion, while China’s human rights record should be examined, writing allegory of “Schindler’s List” is not the way.

If we in the west can not be precise with our accusation, only resort of nefarious political indictment and sensational fabrication. Why should anyone take what we say seriousely?

Sincerely,

References:

- US State Department Investigation:
http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=April&x=20060416141157uhyggep0.5443231&t=livefeeds/wf-latest.html

- Translation of Harry Wu’s open letter regarding his investigation of Falun Gong’s accusation:

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060806_1.htm

- Comment by Melbourne democracy activist Mr. Zhang Hetse on Harry Wu’s open letter (untranslated):

http://www.observechina.net/info/artshow.asp?ID=40224

- Congressional Executive Committee on China brief commented on the reliability of the Kilgour report:

http://exilyn.blogspot.com/2006/08/latest-and-last-report-for-senator.html

- Malaysian government document on Sujiatun hospital visit:

http://crc.gov.my/clinicalTrial/documents/Proposal/TCM_Stroke%20TrialProtocol%20synopsis.pdf

- Kilgour Report, Appendix 12 Case 1, Mr. Wang Bin from a 2000 FAlun Gong article:

http://clearwisdom.net/emh/articles/2000/11/16/6164.html"











Remember the purpose of this discussion is a Tibet vs Current Regime issue. So now that FLG organ harvesting is an exaggeration, which your eargerly and convieniantly concluded otherwise to support your portrait of China being an evil regime, what now do you have to say in comparison between old Tibet and current Tibet?

I am sorry I get hostile, because you seem very oblivious of the facts that has been shown to you.

Such as

Back to Tibet, whereas in old Tibet, anyone outside of the ruling body was subject to poverty, sexual abuse, torture, mutilation and amputation. Just by BEING a commoner, you are stripped of everything entitled to human. Any moment you can become a victim at the whim of your master. Rights? No such a thing.


Old Tibet WAS HELL. I just showed you current China is in no way comparible to it, what do else you have to say to that?

What other more lies will you conjure just so you can win this debate?








TCM
Don't you twist the discussion. It was you who said:

"TCM has been able to achieve results? That sort of breakthrough would get anyone published in Nature!"

It was you who claimed TCM being a mystism, and said it would get publised in Nature if it has any scientific merits to it. I just showed you, IN FRIGGING LARGE QUANTITIES, that people who are conducting researches in TCM publish their findings IN NATURE.

Do you think Nature publish mystism bullshits? Do you think Nature acknowledges voodoo craft that DOES NOT produce results?

TCM produces RESULTS CONTRARY TO YOUR CONVIENIANT CONCLUSIONS.

What else do you not understand? When something so explicitly FACT is thrown in your face, you have the nerve to keep arguing about its validity, you deserve to be called names.

Oh yeah, lastly, how ironic the quote you make:

"even that says that admits that the current research "has failed to address the fundamental concepts of TCM" i.e. the mystical quackery of qi."


While the article ACTUALLY says:

"Over the past 15 years, an increasing number of studies evaluating TCM have been published in Western scientific journals; however, most of the research has not involved collaboration between Western and TCM scientists, and thus has failed to address the fundamental concepts of TCM"


You see, when you say it, you imply TCM's fundamental theory is superstitious bollocks of no proven scientific value, while the article was TRUELY saying failure to address the theory was due to flaws in approachs and methods.



It does NOT discredit TCM theories.



And you don't think you deserved the name "idiot" for twisting the concepts so?












Natives

Yet again, you say:

"Ethically, the natives were animals. They were controlled by their environment, while man controls nature. Language and "culture" do not entitle an animal to be treated as a man. Their ethical system was tribalism, in essence they were living in accordance to their animal instincts. The natives for the most part had no claim to the territory the Europeans settled. They had no permanent settlements and made no improvements on the territory. When Europeans developed agricultures..."

while in truth:

"The Inuit, or Eskimo, prepared and buried large amounts of dried meat and fish. Pacific Northwest tribes crafted seafaring dugouts 40–50 feet long for fishing. Farmers in the Eastern Woodlands tended fields of maize with hoes and digging sticks, while their neighbors in the Southeast grew tobacco as well as food crops. On the Plains, some tribes engaged in agriculture but also planned buffalo hunts in which herds were driven over bluffs. Dwellers of the Southwest deserts hunted small animals and gathered acorns to grind into flour with which they baked wafer-thin bread on top of heated stones. Some groups on the region's mesas developed irrigation techniques, and filled storehouses with grain as protection against the area's frequent droughts.

In the early years, as these native peoples encountered European explorers and settlers and engaged in trade, they exchanged food, crafts, and furs for blankets, iron and steel implements, horses, trinkets, firearms, and alcoholic beverages."


So 1) the MAJORITY of native americans grew agriculture; 2) those who grew agriculture were NOT "mostly wiped out by rival tribes" (fucking lies again, you tut); 3) they own the land, particularly the eastern regions where the natives engaged routine agricultures, where also the early europeans made their settlements; 4) they engaged tradings with the settlers; 5) they helped the settlers through difficult times.



And you fucking call them animals, and you daresay they are the aggressors in the Indian Wars.

For your education:



"During the American Revolution, the newly proclaimed United States competed with the British for the allegiance of Native American nations east of the Mississippi River. Most Native Americans who joined the struggle sided with the British, hoping to use the American Revolutionary War to halt further colonial expansion onto Native American land. Many native communities were divided over which side to support in the war. The first native community to sign a treaty with the new United States Government was the Lenape. For the Iroquois Confederacy, the American Revolution resulted in civil war. Cherokees split into a neutral (or pro-American) faction and the anti-American Chickamaugas, led by Dragging Canoe."




It is a pretty different picture from what you have painted huh? The Indians joined the war to HALT FURTHUR WESTWARD COLONIZATION INTO NATIVE LAND.

First you call them animals, and take their lands away, (animals who grew agriculture, engage in trading and help you survive), and when they fight back to stop your annexation, you accuse them starting the conflicts.

That is how you twist concepts on the face of facts, huh?

Is that reason enough for you to accept that early Americans committed crimes against the rightful owners of the land???

Is that reason enough for me to call you names?





I thought you are not coming back.

Durandal said...

Then what is your alternative explanation why the waiting time for organs dropped in China dropped precipitously in 2000?

The burden of proof to support your assertion that the basis for TCM is valid, i.e. concepts of qi and yin-yang. That claim is not supported by papers studying individual Chinese herbs.

The natives had no claim to land they weren't using, so they had no right to fight against Americans settling unused. The natives were semi-sedentary at best, using primitive farming methods that forced them to move frequently when the soil lost fertility. Between that and their susceptibility to disease, Europeans found an abundance of cleared, unused land. Natives had no claim to territory they weren't using, and had no right to prevent Europeans from using it either. The anecdote about a native tribe helping the "Pilgrims" survive the first year is just that, an anecdote. And that tribe was even destroyed by hostile neighbors soon after that.

Leo said...

I dont know, what is your explaination? Even US state department seems to admit there is no valid proof of mass FLG killing, and that FLG allegations are exaggertions.

Probablly just increased organ doners? Hehe







Nevertheless, Chinese herbs study is different from TCM study. To study Chinese herbs, it goes along the direction of western medical philosphy of researching the chemical substances.

Whereas TCM studies has a theory that supports and predicts the results of practice. It is the theory that is being studied, which in itself validify its potentials.







So you can go around other countries and CLAIM any un-settled land? Can you have claim over Anartica just because it is unused? Can you claim ANY land in your country that is unused?

Natives already developed irrigation methods, which in itself shows great achievement and a transition towards higher levels of society. The white men killed the evolving process because of their greed. They competed in fur tradings, looted the nature. To them, "a forest was so many board feet of timber, a beaver colony so many pelts, a herd of buffalo so many robes and tongues. Even the Indians themselves were a resource - souls ripe for the Jesuit, Dominican, or Puritan plucking.".

They forced the indians to leave their rightful land, and justify their actions with european laws and practices, when being opposed, taught the natives lessons through wars and ethinic cleansing.

All those are crimes committed against PEOPLE, not frigging animals.

The white men not only settled land, but disrupted nature AND when the available land did not satisfy them, FORCED natives away from their home.

In 1700, natives fishing rights were taken away on Mississipi river. Talk about gratitude against the very people who helped you. The tribe was certainly NOT destroyed after that. You once again got your facts wrong. And whats that gotta do with someone who SAVED you? Just because it was a one time thing, it means you can go back and fucking kill them and feel no remorse?

Talk about ethnic cleansing, talking exploiting! Talk about GREED!

All you are trying to justify were crimes committed in the name of progress. Bloody history.

Durandal said...

"There is no organized system of organ donations in China. While donations from living relatives are permitted,33 they only make up 1.1% of the organ supply in China... Cultural beliefs about preserving the body whole after death also discourage Chinese people from donating their organs. Even without an active donation program, China has kept up its huge volume of annual organ transplants and short waiting times." You clearly didn't even bother to skim that thesis. Organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners is the only possible explanation.

Yes, modern scientific studies of Chinese herbs are not TCM, that's what I have been saying. Show me some validation of the fundamental basis of TCM. Voodoo believes that pufferfish toxin turns people into zombies. The fact that tetrodotoxin is a neurotoxin does not prove the existence of loas.

I have already explained the moral basis of property. A person creates property by adding value, i.e. giving it some human use, to a thing. It doesn't matter where the thing is, as long as his use of it does not conflict with someone else's prior use of property. A claim for land can only be made by improving it somehow and continuing to use it.

The natives were not a single tribe or people. The tribes who helped American colonists were different people from the tribes who attacked them. So the Americans did not retaliate against the people who helped them. Likewise, the Eastern tribes did not have or even have use for the Southwestern tribes' knowledge of irrigation. Even for those tribes, raiding was a way of life, hardly high society.

How do you loot wilderness? Trees and animals have no intrinsic value. They only have value when they are used by man.

Leo said...

Still the fact that US government did not acknowledge the legitmacy of FLG organ harvesting in itself shows the FLG story is largely exaggertation and complicating the true conditions in China.

Maybe you have not thought about statistic errors?






That is what I am saying, Nature is publishing findings on TCM. Not Chinese herbs. End of the story.

And the fact that you are studying something guided by a principle is in itself a validation of that POTENTIALS of such principles.







The Natives who helped American colonists were no moer different than an english colonist differs from a scottish colonist. It is human nature to pay homeage and respect to the people who helped you.

There maybe good indians and bad indians, but singling out the indians who helped you does not justify killing the others who didn't.

I've already explained why your concept of property is bollocks. Have the indians NOT developed agricultures? Have they not created furs and other merchandise for trade? All developed from the land.

Trading in itself would have propelled native society's progress. Their ways of using the land would have become more sophisticated, yet the white men killed it in its early stage. That doesn't justify it at all.

Nevertheless, the natives owned these lands. Perhaps they haven't added as much values, but they were entitled to it just as well.

The actions of these settlers was still pillaging, looting, manipulating.

Stealing lands from agricultural indian nations.

Plus, I don't see you going around your country cliaming UNSETTLED lands. Do we?

How do you loot wilderness? The same way you fish the fishes until they extinct. The same way you cut down trees faster than they could grow back. That is how you loot wilderness.

Durandal said...

A statement isn't true just because a government said it. Find the statistical flaw then, don't make vague, baseless statements.

A review article saying vague things about TCM is a lot different from a paper in Nature saying, for instance, that Fermilab has discovered the subatomic particle corresponding to yin.

"And the fact that you are studying something guided by a principle is in itself a validation of that POTENTIALS of such principles." You have a basic misunderstanding of logic. A implies B; B, therefore A is clearly faulty reasoning. To demonstrate this better, suppose I have a theory that ibuprofen contains magical unicorn dust that remedies aches and pains. That ibuprofen cures my headaches does not prove that unicorn dust exists. Now it would be another thing if TCM could explain all knowledge of the human body, then make a hypothesis on a new disease which is proven to be true. You know, modern scientific method.

No, the fact that hostile tribes raided colonists justifies killing them. I'm not sure I could explain the basis of property any slower for you. The Indians had developed primitive agriculture, but they only could claim to lands they were presently using, not abandoned lands. Harvesting furs gave them a right to the fur, but nothing more than that.

You aren't even bothering to reply to me anymore, just repeating and rephrasing your same lines. Natives did not own the vast amounts of unused land in the "New World." Colonists lawfully settled it by developing it for their use. Natives responded by attacking the colonists. Colonists retaliated with justified force.

Finally, you can't steal something that doesn't have an owner. "Loot" presupposes ownership.

Leo said...

"A statement isn't true just because a government said it. Find the statistical flaw then, don't make vague, baseless statements."




Are you THAT stupid? Don't you think the people who is running the government, who directly handles the matter, is a lot smarter than you?

Don't you think they SAW the, so to speak, "flaws"?









You have a basic deficiency of reasoning and understanding logic. Here is the reasoning:

1) TCM works,
2) Without its theory, TCM does not work.
3) People are studying TCM worldwide
4) Therefore, its theory's potentials cannot be ignored









How much more fucking clearly can I put it for you? Are you a fucking retard?












"No, the fact that hostile tribes raided colonists justifies killing them."



Once again, speaking from your ass, huh? Colonists took the rightful land of natives. There are large accounts of historical evidence that it was the WHITE MEN who took advantage of the innocence of the locals.

They NOT ONLY CLAIMED UNUSED LAND, but also propelled natives out of their homeland.

You are, once again, a fucking retard to think otherwise, just go read some early american history.

I don't even know why you are still arguing. So far all historical documents have shown it was the white men being the aggressors, manipulators, invaders and murderers.

Can you provide even ONE authentic and serious research article that proves your theory?

If not, please shut up, and do as you said you would do, leave.

austinchina said...

Imagine where your western society would be today if it had not robbed so much of China's wealth. ??? Didnt the KMT take all Chinas reserves to Taiwan in 1949? Why dont china go and get it all back?